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#1
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RAMC sleeve badges
Could anyone please define the period that these RAMC sleeve badges were worn?
I know from photographic evidence that they were worn during the Great War and possibly just before but for how long afterwards? I cannot recall seeing WW2 photographs of them being worn. Secondly, is there any special significance in the colour of the backing cloth, black on two and Khaki on one? Are they likely to be Great War period? Thank you, Simon |
#2
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Hi,
As far as I was aware these were worn pre Boer War through WWI, but not later than WWI. The black bordered ones are the more common ones seen during WWI. The khaki backed ones may be earlier or even Australian ones for WWI. Not a definitive answer but info based on what I have seen from photographs over many years of collecting to medical corps units. Steven |
#3
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Steven,
many thanks. I have dozens of photographs of Great War RAMC soldiers wearing them but until today I have never seen them for sale at a CBS and then, like London buses, three come along together. It has been quite a weekend for RAMC items for me. Yesterday, I picked up an OSD badge and an interesting letter from Garrard and Co regarding a gold, enamel and diamond RAMC badge brooch for an officer's wife. Today, these three cloth badges and a New Zealand Medical Corps turned up. Simon. Last edited by High Wood; 18-05-14 at 01:04 PM. |
#4
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Nice finds Simon,
Yes the red cross arm badge does seem very hard to come by. I have only acquired 2 in the 35+ years of collecting. Nice to see the quote for the sweetheart brooch. Would have been nice to find the actual brooch. The OSD, if with lugs would make it a collar badge, if with blades then a cap badge. They were of course the same size. Steven |
#5
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The letter from the jewellers and the OSD collar badge came from a house clearance and I was told that all the jewellery was sold at auction.
With regard to the sleeve badges, I have been looking through my RAMC photographs and found a few anomalies. Firstly, not everyone seems to have worn the round badges as shown in this photograph of a territorial RAMC Pte who is wearing a brassard. Secondly, some people wore the brassard and a badge. This does not seem to have been a temporary thing as in the third and fourth photographs the brassard and the badge are clearly sewn in place. Do you know the reason why both a badge and a brassard were worn? It seems that it may have been a territorial thing as all these men seem to be of that ilk. |
#6
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Both the badges and the Red Cross arm band are explained on pages 19 & 20 of 'British Army Proficiency Badges' by Denis Edwards and David Langley.
Marc |
#7
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all I would add is that the "drab" backed version has a pretty good pedigree for being worn in the Great War .......... not to the exclusion of the black version.
These Geneva Cross badges are a nuisance, both as badges and as armbands, because there appears to be anarchy in the wearing of them: both together, one arm, or two, or none. There are also well-authenticated photos showing non-entitled men wearing them, typically those few non-RAMC men helping out at the Regimental Aid Post. |
#8
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Geneva Cross
I have the following notes on the wearing of the Geneva Cross.
Regs for the TF & County Associations 1908 (Provisional).TF Warrant Officers, NCO & Men. Para.558. medical units will wear the Geneva Cross as worn by regulars. For NCO the edging will be in silver embroidery instead of gold, and for buglers and privates, white instead of yellow. Permanent staff. Para.569. Chevrons and badges of rank will be worn as under, and will be of the pattern worn in the unit: Acting Sjt-major- Four bar chevrons and crown on right arm. Sqn Sjt Major instructor, BSM instructor, CSM instructor, Colour Sjt instructor, Staff Sjt instructor- Three bar chevrons and crossed rifles and crown on right arm above the elbow. Sjt instructor- Three bar chevrons and crossed rifles on right arm above the elbow. Crossed rifles will not be worn unless the NCO is in possession of a School of Musketry certificate. In the RA, RE and RAMC, a gun, grenade or Geneva Cross will be worn in addition. With SD, badges and chevrons will be worn on both arms. Territorial Force Regulations 1910. Para493. medical units will wear the Geneva Cross as worn by regulars. With Walking-out Dress the edging will be silver embroidery instead of gold for NCO, and white instead of yellow for buglers and privates, except where gold lace has been sanctioned under Para.454, when the badge will be as authorised for the regular RAMC. ACI 634 published 06.12..23. abolished the wearing of the Geneva Cross badge then authorised for wear by WO, NCO & men of RAMC. |
#9
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Thanks Badjez,
Thats is exactly the info we were looking for. The pre territorial volunteers also wore silver wire for NCO's and white for privates. I have also seen the same worn by the Medical Staff Corps and Volunteer Medical Staff Corps c. 1880's - 1890's, so all we need to find now is official commencement date to tie up the full period worn. Steven |
#10
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Clothing Regs 1881 are the first that I have traced for the regulars' BADGE ......... the armlet is at least 10 years earlier.
VF Regs 1881 para 486 also sanctions the badge for VF "stretcher bearers" who have passed an appropriate course. The waters are muddied because, subsequently, VF SBs wore a different badge, SB in red and blue in a circlet. Technically, the Geneva Cross should only be worn by Medical personnel entitled to protection as such under the geneva Convention, and SBs are NOT thus entitled. The whole subject is very difficult. Believe me! |
#11
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Hi Guys
The navy also had them are you sure the backing is black and not a very dark blue. David |
#12
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Hi David,
From what I can remember the navy ones for number 1 dress the circle was of gold bullion thread and not the yellow as used by the army. Number 2 dress, the circle was of red thread. Steven |
#13
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A recent thread on this forum discussed the similarity between a Cook's badge of the Boy Scouts, and a New Zealand army catering badge. Here we have another example of a similarity in badges, where the scouts have taken their inspiration from the army.
I believe the early editions of the scout Ambulance Man badge did not have the words 'Boy Scouts' in the border.
__________________
Keep the flame lily burning |
#14
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My "Ambulance" badge, an essential for Queen's Scout, is as illustrated above.
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#15
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I have now acquired what I think Badjez was referring to in post 8.
Territorial Force Regulations 1910. Para493. medical units will wear the Geneva Cross as worn by regulars. With Walking-out Dress the edging will be silver embroidery instead of gold for NCO, and white instead of yellow for buglers and privates, except where gold lace has been sanctioned under Para.454, when the badge will be as authorised for the regular RAMC. Any thoughts please? |
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