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  #16  
Old 24-04-16, 07:34 AM
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Gentlemen,
All very interesting, I think from this I can safely conclude that a Gaunt example marked London, is certainly earlier than one marked B'ham, there does seem to be no shortage whatsoever of the latter around these days.
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  #17  
Old 24-04-16, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Gentlemen,
All very interesting, I think from this I can safely conclude that a Gaunt example marked London, is certainly earlier than one marked B'ham, there does seem to be no shortage whatsoever of the latter around these days.
Hi Frank,

Very late to this - sorry.

Yes, Gaunt London are earlier than Gaunt B'Ham.

Looking through official info, the Gaunt B'Ham mark was (as far as I can deduce) first recorded in 1966 in relation to A/A badges of The Queen's Regt.

An issue was raised with such marked brass slider badges in tropical conditions.

Basically they fell apart...

Regards,

Chris
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  #18  
Old 24-04-16, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bess55 View Post
Luc,
A very nice find of a beret that shows a lot of wear and bleaching, being well contemporary for service in Aden 1964 -67. All three Parachute Regt Bn's served there.

However whilst the beret has service wear, the badge does not and one would expect to see some on an anodised badge - rubbing on the front and marking on the neck of the slider. So I would suggest that the badge is not the original badge for the beret from issue as it were and it may have had one or more others before the badge it now sports. It could well be contemporary for a later date, also bearing in mind that even though the date of manufacture is 1964, it may have sat on a store shelf for a few years before issue.

There are many different anodised aluminium makers for this cap badge and one would probably expect to have seen an earlier maker than Gaunt B.ham. (the ghosted outline in the beret fabric would be pretty much be the same for any maker with a slider)

A great find, especially if it was for a decent price!

Regards all

Bess
just to add to the makers of AA slider Para badges as an army cadet in Aldershot in the 1980's I was issued one if I remember correctly the maker was Firmin.
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Last edited by Loski; 24-04-16 at 10:15 AM.
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  #19  
Old 24-04-16, 11:54 AM
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Hello Chris,
Thanks for your reply, had Hugh King got the date right for the anodised badge for this regiment, he gave a sealed date of 18th April 1966?
Kind regards Frank

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Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi Frank,

Very late to this - sorry.

Yes, Gaunt London are earlier than Gaunt B'Ham.

Looking through official info, the Gaunt B'Ham mark was (as far as I can deduce) first recorded in 1966 in relation to A/A badges of The Queen's Regt.

An issue was raised with such marked brass slider badges in tropical conditions.

Basically they fell apart...

Regards,

Chris
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  #20  
Old 24-04-16, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi Frank,

Very late to this - sorry.

Yes, Gaunt London are earlier than Gaunt B'Ham.

Looking through official info, the Gaunt B'Ham mark was (as far as I can deduce) first recorded in 1966 in relation to A/A badges of The Queen's Regt.

An issue was raised with such marked brass slider badges in tropical conditions.

Basically they fell apart...

Regards,

Chris
Hi Chris,
A quick enquiry - apart from the brass slider (and that may be important) on the Queens Regt badge for 1966 - what was the next earliest mention that you found of the Gaunt B.Ham mark on an anodised cap badge? If other badges pop up with the Gaunt B.Ham mark in that era, great.

However, as I understand it, the faulty Queens Regt badge had a weak aluminium rivet and the slider was brass. Could the sliders have been made elsewhere to the anodised badges and perhaps it wouldn't necessarily fall that the integral 'anodised' slider had the Gaunt B.Ham mark that early? Does it necessarily fall that anodised badges and brass badges carried the same makers mark for Gaunt at the same time?

Mid 1960's seems early for the Gaunt B.Ham mark on an anodised slider, but a brass one . . . . ? My knowledge of brass badges with the Gaunt marking is lacking here.

Just my thoughts for debate gents.

Regards all

Bess
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  #21  
Old 25-04-16, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Hello Chris,
Thanks for your reply, had Hugh King got the date right for the anodised badge for this regiment, he gave a sealed date of 18th April 1966?
Kind regards Frank
Hi Frank,

Never a fan of Kipling and King and suggest the date of 1966 was not the original sealing date (it may have been a later one though) as the badge is recorded in the CCN of 1963. In fact, a serving mamber of the regt between 1960 and 1963 informed me he was issued with the badge in November 1960.

Regards,

Chris
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  #22  
Old 25-04-16, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bess55 View Post
Hi Chris,
A quick enquiry - apart from the brass slider (and that may be important) on the Queens Regt badge for 1966 - what was the next earliest mention that you found of the Gaunt B.Ham mark on an anodised cap badge? If other badges pop up with the Gaunt B.Ham mark in that era, great.

However, as I understand it, the faulty Queens Regt badge had a weak aluminium rivet and the slider was brass. Could the sliders have been made elsewhere to the anodised badges and perhaps it wouldn't necessarily fall that the integral 'anodised' slider had the Gaunt B.Ham mark that early? Does it necessarily fall that anodised badges and brass badges carried the same makers mark for Gaunt at the same time?

Mid 1960's seems early for the Gaunt B.Ham mark on an anodised slider, but a brass one . . . . ? My knowledge of brass badges with the Gaunt marking is lacking here.

Just my thoughts for debate gents.

Regards all

Bess
Hi Bess,

The badges were not poorly made from a structural point of view - that is totally wrong - the issue was the environment in which they were used.

See page 161 of my book.

"...Salt contained within the perspiration was creating corrosion resulting from an electrolytic action between the brass shank and the aluminium badge’s body..."

The above is recorded in various doco which has the references on page 164 and 165.

Other uses if the mark - have a look through Appendix 3a. There are quite a few pattern cards recorded there with makers mark on the badge.

Regards,

Chris
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  #23  
Old 25-04-16, 06:51 AM
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Hello Chris,
I know what you mean, not a particular favourite book of mine either, thanks again.
Regards Frank

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Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi Frank,

Never a fan of Kipling and King and suggest the date of 1966 was not the original sealing date (it may have been a later one though) as the badge is recorded in the CCN of 1963. In fact, a serving mamber of the regt between 1960 and 1963 informed me he was issued with the badge in November 1960.

Regards,

Chris
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  #24  
Old 25-04-16, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi Bess,

The badges were not poorly made from a structural point of view - that is totally wrong - the issue was the environment in which they were used.

See page 161 of my book.

"...Salt contained within the perspiration was creating corrosion resulting from an electrolytic action between the brass shank and the aluminium badge’s body..."

The above is recorded in various doco which has the references on page 164 and 165.

Other uses if the mark - have a look through Appendix 3a. There are quite a few pattern cards recorded there with makers mark on the badge.

Regards,

Chris
Hi Chris, yes the latest mark for Gaunt BHam from your pattern card list is the Infantry Junior Leaders Regt in 1969. All the other marks for Gaunt BHam are 1970 onwards (until mid 90's even) which is a bit more realistic. The Queens Regt pattern card for the anodised slider is dated 1970 also, so they were probably supplied by either Dowler or Marples & Beasley after the slider failure issue until they got the contract again around 1970, it would appear.

The Gaunt London mark is shown for the badges dated throughout the 1960's and late 50's in fact. If you take the pattern cards as a representative sample for marks for Gaunt, then 1970 could well be that the approximate change over year for Gaunt BHam to Gaunt London on the marks.

Makes more sense now Chris thanks.

Bess
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  #25  
Old 25-04-16, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bess55 View Post
Hi Chris, yes the latest mark for Gaunt BHam from your pattern card list is the Infantry Junior Leaders Regt in 1969. All the other marks for Gaunt BHam are 1970 onwards (until mid 90's even) which is a bit more realistic. The Queens Regt pattern card for the anodised slider is dated 1970 also, so they were probably supplied by either Dowler or Marples & Beasley after the slider failure issue until they got the contract again around 1970, it would appear.

The Gaunt London mark is shown for the badges dated throughout the 1960's and late 50's in fact. If you take the pattern cards as a representative sample for marks for Gaunt, then 1970 could well be that the approximate change over year for Gaunt BHam to Gaunt London on the marks.

Makes more sense now Chris thanks.

Bess
Hi Bess,

I have to totally disagree with your remarks here.

The doco quite clearly states that the Queen's regt brass slider badges, which only have the B'HAM mark, were complained about in Jan 1967 which has to imply they were made in 1966 or even earlier, as the badges had to be manufactured, issued, fail and then be reported on,

I'll stick to 1966 unless definitive proof, preferably on Gaunt headed note paper, comes to hand.

Regards,

Chris
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  #26  
Old 25-04-16, 07:31 PM
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Hello Chris,
In your opinion, which is the scarcest anodised Parachute Regiment badge and why?
Regards again Frank
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  #27  
Old 25-04-16, 07:57 PM
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Hello Chris,
In your opinion, which is the scarcest anodised Parachute Regiment badge and why?
Regards again Frank
Hi Frank,

Absolutely no idea as records relating to manufacture and issue are very rare.

As a collector I tend to go for early badges such as Timings, early slider Smith & Wright, Hughes, George Tye and Grove Manufacturing.

Looking at my list of manufactures for the Parachute Regt there appears to be an early Grove Manufacturing piece with a non A/A slider (see page 79*) - that would be the one to go for in my opinion if scarcity was a defining issue but they are quite scarce.

*Note: I am indebted to Colin Mathews who collated the list of anodised aluminium cap badges that were manufactured with non-anodised aluminium sliders.

Regards,

Chris

Last edited by hagwalther; 25-04-16 at 08:15 PM.
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  #28  
Old 25-04-16, 11:49 PM
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Hi Bess,

I have to totally disagree with your remarks here.

The doco quite clearly states that the Queen's regt brass slider badges, which only have the B'HAM mark, were complained about in Jan 1967 which has to imply they were made in 1966 or even earlier, as the badges had to be manufactured, issued, fail and then be reported on,

I'll stick to 1966 unless definitive proof, preferably on Gaunt headed note paper, comes to hand.

Regards,

Chris
Chris, the time line for the failing brass slider badge is born out by the dates on documents you've found, but I'm equally going by the data you referred me to. Sealed pattern cards show Gaunt London on the slider for:-

Dorset Regt 1966
Gurkha Boys 1966
Queens Own Lowland Yeo 1968.. . . .etc

So unless they are using both marks at the same time . . . . ?

My enquiry was that perhaps the fact that the slider was brass was important, in that the manufacturing issue is different and Gaunt may have used parts (i.e. sliders) from a part of the manufacturing area that made brass badges, which used a different marking regime. In any case the sealed pattern for the anodised badge with the anodised slider bearing Gaunt BHam is dated 1970. The sealed pattern card bearing a brass slider must surely have been an earlier card as by 1970 they had ceased using the metal slider - if that too was dated 1970 it wouldn't really make sense.

I guess it gets to the heart of the original enquiry here about dates really. We can disagree and that's fine however, but the data would appear to show that Gaunt London mark was still being used throughout the 1960's on anodised Gaunt badge sliders. The anodised slider Queens Regt card is 1970 and all the others you detail for Gaunt BHam (apart from the IJLR at 1969) are all 1970 onwards .

The brass slider with Gaunt BHam is the anomaly here is it not?

All the best

Bess
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  #29  
Old 26-04-16, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by bess55 View Post
Chris, the time line for the failing brass slider badge is born out by the dates on documents you've found, but I'm equally going by the data you referred me to. Sealed pattern cards show Gaunt London on the slider for:-

Dorset Regt 1966
Gurkha Boys 1966
Queens Own Lowland Yeo 1968.. . . .etc

So unless they are using both marks at the same time . . . . ?

My enquiry was that perhaps the fact that the slider was brass was important, in that the manufacturing issue is different and Gaunt may have used parts (i.e. sliders) from a part of the manufacturing area that made brass badges, which used a different marking regime. In any case the sealed pattern for the anodised badge with the anodised slider bearing Gaunt BHam is dated 1970. The sealed pattern card bearing a brass slider must surely have been an earlier card as by 1970 they had ceased using the metal slider - if that too was dated 1970 it wouldn't really make sense.

I guess it gets to the heart of the original enquiry here about dates really. We can disagree and that's fine however, but the data would appear to show that Gaunt London mark was still being used throughout the 1960's on anodised Gaunt badge sliders. The anodised slider Queens Regt card is 1970 and all the others you detail for Gaunt BHam (apart from the IJLR at 1969) are all 1970 onwards .

The brass slider with Gaunt BHam is the anomaly here is it not?

All the best

Bess
Hi Bess,

No problem with the use of marks overlapping as I have no idea whatsoever when the LONDON mark was retired. All one can say is that a the LONDON mark was used, at least up until a specific date, as borne out by its use on a badge attached to a dated pattern card. You have quoted Queens Own Lowland Yeo 1968 - therefore, I have no problem with the LONDON mark being used at least up to 1968 (possibly even later) as the pattern card proves its existence.

All I'm saying is that the Gaunt B'HAM mark was first used 1966 or before and that is borne out by the official documentation of the failing brass slider Queen's A/A badges in tropical conditions. Such doco is dated Jan 1967 implying that the badges had to have been made pre this date hence the B'HAM mark was in use in 1966. In general though, Gaunt LONDON badges are usually found on older unit badges than the B'HAM marked ones and it may be argued that a LONDON marked badge, for the same unit, is probably older (although one cannot be 100% certain) than a B'HAM marked one.

The same badge may be sealed many times for many different reasons - the 1970's dated card has a A/A slider hence the A/A cap badge specification was officially changed, as per the references given in my book, for all non A/A slider attired (most had brass sliders but other non aluminium metals were also used) A/A cap badges. Therefore, the Queen's Regt cap badge was probably re-sealed, in 1970, to reflect this change in specification using, once again, the B'HAM mark.

I don't think there is more that I can say.

Regards,

Chris

Last edited by hagwalther; 26-04-16 at 01:00 AM.
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  #30  
Old 26-04-16, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi Bess,

No problem with the use of marks overlapping as I have no idea whatsoever when the LONDON mark was retired. All one can say is that a the LONDON mark was used, at least up until a specific date, as borne out by its use on a badge attached to a dated pattern card. You have quoted Queens Own Lowland Yeo 1968 - therefore, I have no problem with the LONDON mark being used at least up to 1968 (possibly even later) as the pattern card proves its existence.

All I'm saying is that the Gaunt B'HAM mark was first used 1966 or before and that is borne out by the official documentation of the failing brass slider Queen's A/A badges in tropical conditions. Such doco is dated Jan 1967 implying that the badges had to have been made pre this date hence the B'HAM mark was in use in 1966. In general though, Gaunt LONDON badges are usually found on older unit badges than the B'HAM marked ones and it may be argued that a LONDON marked badge, for the same unit, is probably older (although one cannot be 100% certain) than a B'HAM marked one.

The same badge may be sealed many times for many different reasons - the 1970's dated card has a A/A slider hence the A/A cap badge specification was officially changed, as per the references given in my book, for all non A/A slider attired (most had brass sliders but other non aluminium metals were also used) A/A cap badges. Therefore, the Queen's Regt cap badge was probably re-sealed, in 1970, to reflect this change in specification using, once again, the B'HAM mark.

I don't think there is more that I can say.

Regards,

Chris
Well, we can disagree Chris, the dates and data are what they are. The cards couldn't have all been changed and it wouldn't make sense to have the marks running concurrent really. Its the brass slider issue for me that may be the key. None of the pattern cards you detail - bar one - show the Gaunt BHam mark pre 1969 and the London mark doesn't appear after that date on cap badges that have ANODISED sliders, again taking the pattern cards listed as a rep sample. (the 2 marks do also appear on both REME and R.E cap badges - but lets not open that particular can of worms, eh!).

The brass slider Queens badges are common (as are REME and RE) and don't forget that initially I believe there were 4 Bns - so plenty were issued!

Regards all

Bess
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