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  #1  
Old 10-09-10, 12:01 AM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Default Buckinghamshire Badges

Hi Guys,

I may have sown the seeds of confusion in relation to Buckinghamshire area TA units A/A badges.

See an earlier thread as shown here:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...uckinghamshire

For the "Buckinghamshire Hussars".

I believe that this unit during the A/A era was known as:

"P" (Buckinghamshire Hussars Yeomanry) Battery, 299th (Royal Buckinghamshire Yeomanry) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (TA)
Also known as:
299th (Royal Buckinghamshire Yeomanry) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (TA)

There appear to be two badges in existence covering this unit - see images.

One has the scroll "THE BUCKINGHAMSHIRE REGIMENT" and the other has a dual scroll of 'YEOMANRY OF BUCKS STRIKE HOME' and 'ROYAL BUCKS HUSSARS'.

Here is the LoC designation for the Tudor Crowned "Buckinghamshire Hussars" from 1st Sept 1952.

INTRODUCTION. A pattern (No. 15066) has been sealed to govern future manufacture and is hereby introduced.
The design in white metal or anodised aluminium is a circle surmounted by a crown, within the circle, a swan.
Around the circle is the wording "Yeoman of Bucks" "Strike Home" and at the base there is a scroll inscribed "Royal Bucks Hussars".

And for the St. Edward Crown from 19th Sept 1958.

NEW PATTERN. A pattern (No. 17509) has been sealed to govern future manufacture.
The new pattern differs from the old (No. 15066) (CB 3209, C 5160) in that it incorporates the St. Edward Crown.


While the St. Edward badge is very rare indeed I have no evidence that the Tudor Crowned badge was ever manufactured.

I also have no evidence whatsoever of the one scroll "THE BUCKINGHAMSHIRE REGIMENT" badge being officially authorised for issue.

I therefore believe that the St. Edwards Crown dual scroll badge is the only official item for the "Buckinghamshire Hussars" and all others are unofficial commissions some even being made post 1991.


With regard to the "Black Buckinghamshire" badge.

I understand that this unit was known during the A/A era as the:

Buckinghamshire Regiment Royal Artillery (Territorials).

From my notes based on official correspondence held at the National Archives, Kew I have:

This Regiment was formed in 1967 by parts of 299 and Ox & Bucks LI, disbanded in 1969 as part of the TAVR III disbandment program.

Officially only the dies and initial die samples of the following badges were manufactured before the contract to supply was cancelled.


Any genuine samples would be in a raw aluminium state pre the anodising and colour dying process so would not be black.

As such, I believe all "Black Buckinghamshire" badges to be unofficial commissions.

With the possible use by Cadets - the Cadet procurement process was quite simple usually agreed over a gin and tonic and an official letter from the Cadet unit commander to the War Office.

During the A/A era at least, Cadet units were for the main affiliated to their local TA battallion and wore the badge of that battalion if they did not have their own example.

To conclude that this badge was worn by cadets one would need evidence that a TA unit wore the "Black Buckinghamshire" badge be it in non A/A material with the Cadets then commissioning their own example in A/A.

I hope this helps sort things out a bit and prevents collectors parting with lots of money on dubious products.

I'll be away over the weekend to answer queries re: the above and as per usual if anyone is thinking of buying an expensive badge and is unsure re: pedigree or authenticity then contact me on my GMail email address:

hagwalther at gmail dot com

Not wishing to labour the point but paying 145 quid as per eBay a few months ago for a "Black Buckinghamshire" A/A badge can only be describe as 'optimistic'...

Regards

Chris
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Buckinghamshire Regt Obverse.jpg (75.7 KB, 116 views)
File Type: jpg Buckinghamshire Regt Reverse.jpg (56.8 KB, 90 views)
File Type: jpg Royal Bucks Hussars Obverse.jpg (53.3 KB, 96 views)
File Type: jpg Royal Bucks Hussars Reverse.jpg (42.3 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg Buckinghamshire Battn Obverse.jpg (47.0 KB, 122 views)
File Type: jpg Buckinghamshire Battn Reverse.jpg (43.2 KB, 76 views)
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  #2  
Old 10-09-10, 07:49 AM
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Chris,

One minor point the Black Bucks Battalion design was in use from 1908 in metal and was not a 1967 creation. Your refernece to the 1967 badge refers to the silver yeo design with Bucks regt on the scroll. The black crosss was not the design refered to as the 1967 amlgamated unit as it was already in use prior to 1945 (albeit with a k/c). However the Q/C version is indeed only found with a Gaunt Bham stamp. This is indeed probably totally spurious as the cross design of badge went out of use in the 1940s. This is the Bucks regtl lineage.

1939.03.31 1st Buckinghamshire Battalion, The Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry redesignated on formation of 2nd Battalion
1946.08.17 suspended animation
1947.01.01 645 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RA (Bucks) (T.A.)
reconstituted in T.A. with HQ at Slough, concurrently amalgamated with 2nd Battalion and converted to artillery
1955.03.10 R (Buckinghamshire) Battery, 431 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RA
S (Buckinghamshire) Battery,
[amalgamated with 480 (Berkshire) HAA Regt RA and 536 (M) LAA/SL Regt (Surrey) RA]
1961.05.01 S (Buckinghamshire Rifles) Battery, 299th (Royal Buckinghamshire Yeomanry, Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars, and Berkshire) Field Regiment, RA
[reduced to one battery, and amalgamated with 299th (Royal Buckinghamshire Yeomanry, Berkshire Yeomanry, and Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars) Field Regiment, RA]
1967.04.01 Q Battery (The Buckinghamshire Rifles), The Buckinghamshire Regiment, RA (Territorials)
reorganised in TAVR III at Bletchley
1969.01.01 D Company, 4th (V) Battalion, The Royal Green Jackets
at Aylesbury, formed from its P Bty as The Buckinghamshire Regt RA reduced to cadre
1986.12.01 D Company
at Aylesbury
} 5th (V) Battalion,
The Royal Green Jackets


So there are potentialy 4 a/a badges here - the Yeomany k/c, yeomanry Q/C, Bucks Bn and Bucks regt in black. I have never seen examples of the first 2 (your Q/c yeo is the only one that I have seen) and the second 2 are quite likely unofficial commissions.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 10-09-10 at 08:10 AM.
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  #3  
Old 10-09-10, 03:32 PM
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Were the first and second badges in A/A white metal ever worn?
Matti
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  #4  
Old 10-09-10, 05:46 PM
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Ive never heard of a kc yeomanry,the others are certainly out there.The Btn is a rare one,and the qc scrolled.The regt badge is reasonably common.

Last edited by Alan O; 21-02-19 at 12:22 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-09-10, 03:56 AM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Hi Guys,

Thanks for the input.

Alan - can you confirm that your entry:

1967.04.01 Q Battery (The Buckinghamshire Rifles), The Buckinghamshire Regiment, RA (Territorials)

relates to 'THE BUCKINGHAMSHIRE REGIMENT" badge as shown as the first two silver images in this thread and not the black badge example?

If you can then this throws the black badge item even further down the unofficial commission list and I won't even both looking for it to complete a set of unofficial commissioned cancelled TAVRIII unit badges.

Alan, can you also give a reference for the linage supplied - I would like to check with a secondary source that I have been using.

To confirm my stance at the moment - What I'm saying here is that if anyone is thinking of purchasing "Buckinghamshire" anodised aluminium cap badges then the only one that I believe was officially authorised for issue AND manufactured was the St. Edwards Crown "ROYAL BUCKS HUSSARS" one as shown in the third and fourth images.

The St. Edwards Crown "ROYAL BUCKS HUSSARS" is a very rare badge and the one shown was picked up in Australia with a couple of other Yeomanry badges from the same era. All though exhibit correct manufacturing traits that I would expect to find from the makers and the maker markings reconcile with known pattern card markings for the era of unit exhitence.

I can't comment on any other non A/A items so I'm afraid that have to leave other metal types out of the running.

Regards

Chris
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  #6  
Old 12-09-10, 06:22 AM
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Chris,

Having checked in K&K Vol 2 and Gaylor they contradict each other as to which was the 1967 badge! I will need to go and see what Maj Edwards states for a third opinion as to when the w/m Regt badge came in as Gaylor says '67 where as K&K say 1961. Logically Gaylor is right as it ties in with the rest of the TAVR reforms where county amalgamations of TA Inf, RA, RAC and Yeomanry units all had new (but similiar) designs.

The regtl lineages are all on the UK MOD's website. Most are in th Signals Yeomanry regts now.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 12-09-10 at 09:44 AM.
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  #7  
Old 13-09-10, 07:32 PM
ukbrits ukbrits is offline
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Hi Guys,
Looking through a wiki webpage for the Royal Green Jackets I noticed that the
5th (V) Bn of the Royal Green Jackets was formed from the 4th Bn of the Ox & Bucks L.I (T.A) and the Bucks Bn of the Ox & Bucks L.I. I believe this amalgamation happened in 1969.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Green_Jackets

So,the regiments title certainly lived on after the war. Wether there were any official badges made at Regimental or Battery level I don't know.
Looking through my collection I do have a black metal and an anodised Q.C Bucks Bn badge.
Kipling & King Vol2 also shows a black Q.C cap badge to the Bucks Bn (2391 page167 refers).Both of these badges were made by J.R Gaunt B'ham. I have seen a few of these anodised Bucks Bn badges and they have all had that "used" look about them on the badges high points & slider.

There is also good info on the silver anodised Buckinghamshire Regiment badge on page 142 also from K&K.
Hope this helps
Best Regards
UKbrits

Last edited by ukbrits; 13-09-10 at 07:33 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #8  
Old 13-09-10, 07:38 PM
ukbrits ukbrits is offline
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Hi Guys,
Looking through a wiki webpage for the Royal Green Jackets I noticed that the
5th (V) Bn of the Royal Green Jackets was formed from the 4th Bn of the Ox & Bucks L.I (T.A) and the Bucks Bn of the Ox & Bucks L.I. I believe this amalgamation happened in 1969.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Green_Jackets

So,the regiments title certainly lived on after the war. Wether there were any official badges made at Regimental, Company or Battery level I don't know.
Looking through my collection I do have a black metal and an anodised Q.C Bucks Bn badge.
Kipling & King Vol2 also shows a black Q.C cap badge to the Bucks Bn (2391 page167 refers).Both of these badges were made by J.R Gaunt B'ham. I have seen a few of these anodised Bucks Bn and they have all had that "used" look about them on the badges high points & slider.

There is also good info on the silver anodised Buckinghamshire Regiment badge on page 142 also from K&K.
Hope this helps
Best Regards
UKbrits

Last edited by ukbrits; 13-09-10 at 07:48 PM.
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  #9  
Old 14-09-10, 01:04 PM
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Chaps,

Edwards 1957 2nd edn has the Bucks Bn black cross with k/c as 645 LAA RA (Bucks).
It has the Bucks Hussars badge with a k/c as being worn by the Bucks Bty only.

1963 3rd Edn shows only the Q/C Oxford Hussars as Q Bty and the Q/C Bucks Hussars (note Hussars) Yeomanry as P Bty of 299 RBY, QOO and Berks Fd Regt RA. It shows the Bucks Bn k/c black badge in the disbanded regt section as now RA and in suspended animation (i.e. no longer in existance).

1966 4th edn has the same mention of the Yeomanry badge. There is no mention of the black bn badge in q/c or k/c either. It is not in use according to this book.

Alas I do not have access to the 5th Edn!

1974 6th edn shows the 2 Yeo badges as defunct and the RA unit they formed now part of the Wessex Regt. Again no Bucks Bn.

My conclusion – the q/c yeo badge is correct, the 'proposed but never made' badge is the Bucks regt one in silver. It has been made subsequently for the collector's market.

The black bn cross in a/a (and probably the black metal as well; even if one is in K&K) was never worn by the regt as the unit had been disbanded and were made for the cadets. They are all JR Gaunt Bham marked which dates them.

Back to the original quaestion about what was the proposed 1968 design, the idea that the post-1968 reoganised TA badge for all of the Bucks County TA would be an obselete Infantry badge does not ring true for me. The idea that it was a modified (the senior) yeomanry design of a unit in existance is a much better one. After all this is what happened witht he Berkshire Territorials who were to wear a silver a/a version of the gold berks Yeo badge.

Last edited by Alan O; 21-02-19 at 12:23 PM.
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  #10  
Old 14-09-10, 04:23 PM
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Thank you guys, I will not buy the Territorials badge, I would buy the Yeo in A/A and never the blackened one!!!
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  #11  
Old 14-09-10, 08:02 PM
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Thanks Alan,

It seems that we have come to the same conclusion.

This is what I understand the situation to be:

The badge shown below being the St. Edwards Crowned "ROYAL BUCKS HUSSARS" is the only one that was:

a) authorised for issue

b) actually bulk manufactured.

If you wish to go for a small collection of officially authorised badges that were however cancelled before bulk manufacture then acquire one of the "THE BUCKINGHAMSHIRE REGIMENT" but be aware that these are all unofficial commissions.

Forget about the black badge as this appears to have no pedigree whatsoever.

Regards

Chris
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Royal Bucks Hussars Obverse.jpg (53.3 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg Royal Bucks Hussars Reverse.jpg (42.3 KB, 21 views)
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  #12  
Old 14-09-10, 08:10 PM
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Not a problem. Major Edward's books are not perfect but at least they are contempory and fairly well researched by the author. I would be interested to see if anyone has the 5th edn. I have a niggling recollection that it includes the proposed 67-8 badges.

Alan
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  #13  
Old 15-09-10, 09:39 AM
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Chris,

The only way that i think that the Buck Bn badge could have any legitimacy is if it was in use by a cadet force but source material on cadets is very tricky to find especiallly School CCFs. My own CCF (many years ago) wore 3 different badges in a short period of time - 2 currently!

Alan
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  #14  
Old 15-09-10, 08:07 PM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
Chris,

The only way that i think that the Buck Bn badge could have any legitimacy is if it was in use by a cadet force but source material on cadets is very tricky to find especiallly School CCFs. My own CCF (many years ago) wore 3 different badges in a short period of time - 2 currently!

Alan
Hi Alan,

Cadets were affiliated to their local TA battalion and wore the badge of the battalion. If the "Black Buckinghamshire" badge was not worn by a TA unit then the cadets would not have worn it.

The exceptions to the first sentence are:

a) The cadet unit had its own badge.

b) The cadet unit was not affiliated to a TA battalion and did not have its own badge. In this case it was authorised to wear the badge of the General Service Corps.

As such, I do not believe that the "Black Buckinghamshire" badge was officially worn by cadets unless of course the badge was worn by a TA battalion during the era of A/A badges. If this can be proved then I stand corrected of course.

While such procurement of cap badges by cadets and their use was quite relaxed a specific badge still had to be given permission for wear by certain authorities.

I can't remember who the authorities were right now but have documented all this using specific examples in my Cadets chapter of the book taking official correspondence as found in the National Archives, Kew.

Regards

Chris
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  #15  
Old 15-09-10, 09:13 PM
ukbrits ukbrits is offline
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Default Bucks Bn cap badge R.G.S High Wycombe

Hi Guys,
I may (or may not) have solved the puzzle of the Q.C black Bucks Bn cap badge. After doing a bit of research on the web I discovered in an old catalogue for Bonhams (11018 arms & militaria) this info.
Inside the catalogue on lot 67 there is a Royal Grammar School High Wycombe cap badge on offer which states "wore Bucks Bn cap badge".

I am of course unaware of the timeframe when this badge was worn or wether it was worn by O.T.C or C.C.F but at least it's a start on uncovering where this black Bucks Bn badge came from!

So don't throw your anodised aluminium Bucks Bn cap badge in the dustbin just yet! A bit more detective work required methinks!

Heres the link to the catalogue page.
http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/wspd_...&iSaleNo=11018

Best Regards
UKbrits
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