British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Books by Forum Members


Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Canadian Military Insignia > General Topics

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-12-08, 04:28 PM
boots and saddles's Avatar
boots and saddles boots and saddles is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Durham(Varney) ont. Canada
Posts: 1,122
Default Honest Dealer Kangaroo badge, 1 CACR

There is something about honest dealers that I don't like, The comment "will let the experts decide on this one" In other words if there is are enough green horns out there that may bite on this one so much the better let them loose on the bidding. Experts don't have to guess on this one,they know that it's a repro. Sure the opening price is reasonable but can't they say that it's a repro, I don't call that honesty,entrapment yes. Being able to say "I didn't say it was a legitimate badge" is not good enough and if he is a member of this forum he should know. Ray http://cgi.ebay.ca/Kangaroo-Hat-badg...1%7C240%3A1318

Last edited by Bill A; 01-12-08 at 05:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-12-08, 04:36 PM
James G's Avatar
James G James G is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 221
Default

What is it about this badge that makes you think it's a repro. It looks well defined on the back. I don't know much about Australian badges so would appreciate any pointers.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-12-08, 04:41 PM
Voltigeur's Avatar
Voltigeur Voltigeur is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal,Canada.
Posts: 5,771
Default

Hi Ray, go and check the 51 Soo Rifles that this seller has with a slider and a Scully's mark. IMO by saying "Will let the experts decide......" this guy is covering his a**,instead of saying "I don't know badges so, I don't know if those are fakes". So he is putting the onus on the buyer who is supposed to be the "expert".
Jo
__________________
"There truly exists but one perfect order: that of cemeteries. The dead never complain and they enjoy their equality in silence." -

“There are things we know that we know,” “There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.”
Donald Rumsfeld, before the Iraqi Invasion,2003.

Age is something that doesn't matter, unless you are a cheese.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-12-08, 04:58 PM
David Tremain's Avatar
David Tremain David Tremain is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 1,886
Default

First of all, looking at the photo on the e-Bay link, this is not an Australian badge. It is of the 1st Canadian Armoured Personnel Carrier Regiment. The kangaroo refers to the armoured personnel carrier. Second, the photo shows a round O in the Latin motto. Everything I have read and been told about this badge indicates that to be an original it should have an oval 0. There are some other small variations, but I can't find the link right now. Maybe Bill knows. I have a similar one which I picked up in England for about five pounds a couple of years ago; it also has the round O. To ask what this dealer is asking, for what appears to be not original is too much.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-12-08, 06:05 PM
marway_Jaime marway_Jaime is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Winnipeg,Manitoba
Posts: 224
Default

Maybe the seller is poking a little fun at two well known dealers, who had a very verbal disagreement on the 'roo badge at a convention a few years back.

But really some of these badges are really hard to tell if they are good or not, so this collector is just protecting his behind a smidge, nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

The 'roo badge is a replica by the way.

jaime
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-12-08, 06:58 PM
regimentalrogue regimentalrogue is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 202
Default

I'm not sure who put this graphic together, but I saved in in passing some time ago.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg WJM_1CACRbadgeID.jpg (65.2 KB, 292 views)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-12-08, 07:03 PM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,400
Default

Mike, That is the best quick reference to good and bad 1 CACR badges.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-12-08, 07:21 PM
arcticmedals arcticmedals is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 45
Default Kangaroo badge and 51st Soo Rifles

The Roo badge is a copy and I think the 51st Soo Rifes is also, made in the UK I would venture. The originals should have lugs. Can't account for the maker's name, maybe that was copied in too, as happens on some items. Having a maker's name doesn't mean it's real.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-12-08, 07:36 PM
Voltigeur's Avatar
Voltigeur Voltigeur is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal,Canada.
Posts: 5,771
Default

Again for the Soo Rifles, both DavidS on a post 18/04/08 and Bill A on a similar and later post on 20/07/08 have given some informations on this badge. Good job,Mike on the Roo info.
Jo
__________________
"There truly exists but one perfect order: that of cemeteries. The dead never complain and they enjoy their equality in silence." -

“There are things we know that we know,” “There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.”
Donald Rumsfeld, before the Iraqi Invasion,2003.

Age is something that doesn't matter, unless you are a cheese.

Last edited by Voltigeur; 01-12-08 at 08:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-12-08, 08:06 PM
DavidS's Avatar
DavidS DavidS is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Calgary AB Canada
Posts: 997
Default

The comparison sheet for the 1st APCR 'Roos was put together by Bill Miller, I believe, and yes, the badge in question is the "Die II" (i.e. repro) badge.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-12-08, 09:33 PM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,400
Default

Thanks David. I thought that it was Bill Miller's work as well.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-12-08, 09:39 PM
regimentalrogue regimentalrogue is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidS View Post
The comparison sheet for the 1st APCR 'Roos was put together by Bill Miller, I believe, and yes, the badge in question is the "Die II" (i.e. repro) badge.
That would match the "WJM" in the original file name. Any credit is fully his, I just happened to have a copy of the image, and for that it's well outside my own collecting interests.

Cheers

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-12-08, 09:56 PM
boots and saddles's Avatar
boots and saddles boots and saddles is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Durham(Varney) ont. Canada
Posts: 1,122
Default

OK, Let's see what poor fil de fusil gets caught. (Jo can correct my French spelling). James, Regimental Rogue have showed us the difference between good & bad right here. Ray
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-12-08, 10:18 PM
Michael Reintjes's Avatar
Michael Reintjes Michael Reintjes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London Ontario Canada
Posts: 424
Default

This is the one I was looking for...from the CSSMI journal by Tony Reintjes.The Bill Miller reference page is an excellent one and the quickest tool to use.I,ll try to find the whole article if anyone is interested
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-12-08, 10:24 PM
Michael Reintjes's Avatar
Michael Reintjes Michael Reintjes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London Ontario Canada
Posts: 424
Default CSSMI ARTICLE Tony Reintjes

Background History of 1st Canadian Armoured
Personnel Carrier Regiment

The regiment was officially formed 24 October 1944, although elements of this Unit operated well before this date.

At this time the 1st CACR was wearing the generic insignia of the Canadian Armoured Corps (white metal tank badge). The regiment wore this badge right up to February 1945. The regiment decided sometime in early November 1944 to have their own distinguished cap badge and shoulder title. I have a copy of the original “kangaroo” badge design proposal drawing on a J.R. Gaunt & Son letterhead which was rejected by First Canadian Army Headquarters. This is the design with the young kangaroos in the pouch. I also have a copy of a memo dated as late as 18 November 1944 approving both shoulder title and cap badge, emended by the removal of the young kangaroos from the “pouch” of the “carrier” kangaroo and by the substitution of the regimental motto for the Unit name which at present appears at the base of the badge. The colours “orange and black” for the shoulder title have been approved, however it is directed that the title read “CDN ARMD CARRIER REGT” with the word “CANADA” below. Main H.Q. First Cdn. Army 21 November 1944, signed by Major D.F. Cameron, GS0 II CAC.

The first “kangaroo” cap badges were issued to the officers and men at the end of January 1945 and by the end of February, all members of the ICACR were wearing the J.R. Gaunt produced cap badges – bronze flat back type for the officers and a brass badge, sometimes with a gilt wash finish, for the men. Both officer’s and men’s badges were stamped from the same J.R. Gaunt die.

The regiment was officially disbanded 11 May 1945, therefore the badge was only worn for less than a four-month period. The regiment was never larger than approximately 550 men, with a relatively low casualty rate, seventeen men killed and almost no new ranks taken on, no wonder the original die-produced badges are so scarce. I have several Canadian Army Clothing and Equipment statement documents and according to these, usually only one cap badge was issued. However, I have heard from veterans that they were issued more than one. For arguments sake, let’s assume the 1CAR issued three badges each, (550 men and 35 officers x 3), an approximate total of 1,755 badges. This is a very small number of badges, certainly not enough to wear out the die.

Now, welcome to the so-called “second die”. I personally own about twelve cap badges produced by this die. The badge produced from this die is a poorly designed copy of the original with crude details, usually made of two materials, one in light yellow coloured cartidge brass (70% copper, 30% zinc), its high zinc content giving it a light yellow colour, usually thin in thickness (probably stamped from thin brass sheet stock laying about in the shop), and the second in a more reddish coloured brass (80% copper, 20% zinc alloy) with the higher content of copper giving it a more reddish look. The last type is susceptible to oxidizing, giving it a darker colour. Some of the badges produced by the second die have their finish artificially altered to make them look aged and could be mistaken for an officer’s badge.

Logic and common sense dictates that with Gaunt’s original die only producing approximately 1,800 badges, the die certainly was not worn out and there was no need for a second die for this short four-month period of operations. It is my opinion that the so-called “second die” is a reproduction die which was made in England in the late 1960’s with the sole purpose of monetary gains. The material from which these badges were produced using this die has no important significance other than whatever brass sheet stock was lying about the shop.

While I’m at it, a few lines regarding the shoulder title. Again, in my opinion, the only legitimate title worn by the 1CAR is the orange and black artificial silk title. This title originated in Holland approximately the same time as the cap badge, January/February 1945. The colours, black, as used in the beret of the CAC, and orange, link to the Dutch Royal House of Orange since the regiment was officially formed in Holland. The shoulder flash was ordered from and produced by a weaving mill in Tilburg, Holland, near Eindhoven. Since cloth material was in short supply during the war, they used whatever was on hand which happened to be the artificial silk. The various English-made titles which are flooding the market, (I own at least seven different types including a canvas type) are, in my opinion, all reproductions. They have no historical or monetary value and are only in existence for monetary greed. Why would the regiment need more shoulder titles since the Tilburg mill could provide them with as many titles as needed and was located just behind the theatre of operations?

Over the last twenty-eight years, I have seen six original 1CAR battle dress tunics, of which four came with original Armoured Corps black berets, and two battle dress tunics this year, one on my recent trip to Holland and one (officer’s) at the annual CSMMI show in St. Catharines. All of the battle dress tunics had the artificial silk titles and the berets all had the Gaunt original cap badge including the quality bronzed officer’s badge (same die). I must point out that none of these tunics or berets had been altered and were as found. I have never seen an English-made title or reproduction badge on certified original battle dress tunics and berets.

I hope to write some further articles in upcoming journal publications on other reproduced badges and cloth titles.

Identification of the Original Cap Badges
Compared to Reproduction Badges

There are many obvious differences between these badges such as lug fasteners, weight, dimensions, quality, details, material and design but some of these differences can be somewhat controversial. To keep things simple so that the average collector can identify the reproduced cap badge without too much trouble, I will concentrate mainly on the design.

I have included two photographs, one of the original Gaunt cap badge, the other of the reproduction cap badge. I have numbered the main differences between the two badges from 1.O to 5.O and I.R to 5.R.

Original Gaunt Badge Reproduction Badge

1.O Normal eye and eyebrows, 1.R Bulging eye and exaggerated
high quality engraving eyebrows
From tip of nose to base of ear in From base of nose to base of ear
a straight line swept up

2.O Curved nose and chin 2.R Square nose and chin

3.O Flat section of stomach between 3.R Almost no flat section on stomach
partially hidden front leg and hip between partially hidden front leg
and hip, almost V-shaped

4.O Relatively large gap between claw 4.R Relatively small gap between claw
of front paw to hip of front paw to hip (notice poor
detail of upper hip outline and claw
of front paw)

5.O The “O” in the motto “ARMATOS 5.R The “O” in the motto “ARMATOS
FUNDIT” has an oval shape instead FUNDIT” has a round shape
of round

Note: Use the difference in the “O” as a fast identification method.

‘O’val = ‘O’riginal
‘R’ound = ‘R’eproduction
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:12 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.