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  #1  
Old 30-01-15, 10:59 PM
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Cool T.A. Leicestershire Regt

Some long time ago I started a thread on a plastic Leicestershire Regt badge I have had for some while with the "Hindoostan" missing, this was put down I think at the time as vandalism.

However, I have seen another on our favourite online bidding site.

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361167454706

Is this coincidental vandalism or were plastic Leicestershire Regt badges worn with the "Hindoostan" removed?

I would be interested to know.

Regards Rob
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  #2  
Old 01-02-15, 09:34 AM
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Question Leicestershire Regt collectors

After 74 views of my post, I'm surprised I have had no comments, are there no Leicestershire Regt collectors out there.

Rob
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  #3  
Old 01-02-15, 10:22 AM
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Default TA Leics

Rob,

I've never seen one of these before. The most common damage to these Leics plastics is for the front outstretched paw to be broken off. In this case the paw remains and the much more secure scroll is missing, therefore, I would opt for the intentional vandalism of a TA man unhappy at being issued a plastic badge.

Given the opportunity I would add a badge like this to my collection.

Stephen.
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  #4  
Old 01-02-15, 10:46 AM
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Hi Rob,

Sorry this Leicesters collector has had little time for his badges and the forum.

i have seen a number of BM Leicesters badges with the WM Hindoostan scroll removed. I have one or two myself. They may have been done to decieve or were solutions to a shortage of TF battalion badges but there is no way of telling really. Maybe by studying the brazing marks the TF and regular badges there could be a pattern.

However, as to missing Hindoostan scrolls on plastic badges I have not come across this. It may well be an unhappy TA soldier. Wish I could shed more light on it Rob.

Cheers Dean.
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  #5  
Old 01-02-15, 10:57 AM
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Smile Leicestershire Regt

Thanks Stephen and Dean for your replies, from the looks of the badge on ebay it is the same as mine and the top scroll has been carefully removed, not IMO vandalism as such but purposefully executed.

An interesting item for anyone who collects badges to the forerunners of the Royal Anglians.

Rob
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  #6  
Old 01-02-15, 11:52 AM
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As the TA stopped wearing the scrolless badge at the end of WW1 and the plastic were 20+ years later I would be surprised if it was supposed to be a TA badge.
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  #7  
Old 01-02-15, 12:28 PM
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Default Leicesters TF/TA Badges without "Hindoostan" honour

Hello Rob

Sadly, like Dean, I haven’t been able to contribute to the Forum for a while now, and have only recently begun to make brief visits again after another long absence.

Nonetheless, in answer to your question, my understanding was that because the Territorial Force were granted the right to wear badges showing the honours of their parent regiments in September 1917 (see a posting I made about this here), that after this date they wore the exact same badges as the regulars; at least were the Leicesters are concerned.

In off-Forum correspondence, Julian (KLR) has kindly shared information he has about certain TF badges being made obsolete later that same year, i.e. 1917, and his view that the granting of the right to have honours on the badges, and the subsequent obsolescence of those without, was all to do with the War Office taking over badge supply from the Territorial Associations and wanting to reduce the number of variant badges being produced.

In any event, although any change within the Leicesters’ TF battalions from badges without top scrolls to those with the “Hindoostan” honour like the regulars would have had a transitional period, by the time of the Second World War all members of the Leicestershire TA should have been wearing the same badges as their comrades in the regular battalions.

I personally, therefore, can see no obvious reason why a plastic Leicesters’ badge should not have its top scroll, and so in this case am of the opinion that it would never have been worn like this. Basically why would someone change their band new badge to try and make it resemble a badge that had become officially obsolete more than twenty years previous!?

Perhaps the “Hindoostan” honour did break off, or partially come away, and then someone purposefully removed the traces of this? Why you would want to do this I don’t know, but, like I say, I cannot see any reason myself for a badge like this not having its top scroll and being worn without it.

As to the Dean’s point about bi-metal Leicestershire Regiment badges where their top scrolls have been removed, and whether some examples of these are genuine TF badges or not, I am of the opinion that some could be, but that others have more than likely been deliberately altered by the taking off of the “Hindoostan” honour.

My own feeling is that when the TF badges were first introduced in 1908, it is likely that regulars’ badges were used and that the top scrolls of these removed, probably by the makers. Later badges, however, I believe, would have been produced from dies which were true to the design of the badge and so did not include a top scroll.

As to whether old sweats who transferred from the regulars to the TF then altered their old badge to show this change, I am still undecided on this. I have seen a number of badges, often with loops (lugs) rather than vertical shanks (sliders), that could fall into this category.

Unfortunately, I am not knowledgeable enough about any regulations that might have governed this. Such as would it have been a requirement of an old soldier upon joining the TF to physically alter his badge, or would he, in fact, have been allowed to have worn his badge with the “Hindoostan” honour because he had served as a regular and therefore was entitled to show this? Perhaps someone out there does know more about this?

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 01-02-15 at 12:38 PM.
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  #8  
Old 01-02-15, 12:30 PM
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Smile T.A. Leicestershire Regt

Alan,

A very good point which I think has been mentioned before on this forum, however, as we have also said, "never say never with badge collecting" just because the paper chase says that something was discontinued post WWI does not mean that it was adhered to, some Kings crown badges were I'm told worn into the late fifties, when theoretically they should not have been worn after 1953.

Sadly, the people that wore these plastic badges are now fading fast with very few left in comparison that were around twenty years ago. If only we could turn the clock back . . !

Rob
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  #9  
Old 01-02-15, 01:48 PM
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Default Genuine Leicesters' TF/TA Badges?

Hi Rob

All things are, indeed, possible, but surely the starting point has to be what was officially authorised. As you point out those who wore such plastic badges are slowly diminishing in number, and only they will know for sure what they wore and what they didn’t. Everything else is therefore subjective and a matter of opinion, albeit perhaps supported by official documentation or photographic evidence.

I think we must be careful, however, not to simply accept everything we see as being exceptions to the rule; though there are undoubtedly genuine badges that would fall into that category. I personally have to agree with Alan, and, as I have said in my previous posting, I cannot myself see why someone would have good reason to remove the “Hindoostan” honour on a plastic Leicesters’ badge to make it look like a badge from a much earlier era.

Regrettably are there plenty of Leicestershire Regiment badges out there that have obviously had their top scrolls removed, many in a very poor fashion, some probably because of damage suffered, but others where it would seem to have been deliberately done to change the badge into something it wasn’t and thereby increase its value.

Leicesters’ TF badges are not that rare, but given their ‘official’ period of wear, 1908-1917, there are not that many around as the regulars’ ones with the top scroll, which were worn from 1897-1951. I have one badge in particular, which has clearly suffered such alteration, even having false braze holes added!!

All things are possible, and “never say never” is defiantly not a bad approach to things, but sometimes we have to say no, that is just wrong. I am thinking here of a Leicesters’ TF badge I recently purchased which was blackened. As far as I am aware there has never been a case for the Leicesters’ TF battalions wearing a blackened badge, officially or unofficially.

Nevertheless, as the badge in question was relatively cheap I went for it, despite it being of a type that I believe to be a restrike. When it arrived I was therefore not surprised that it had the distinctive odour of acrylic modelling paint, which had so obviously been applied in attempt to turn a pretty common restrike into a ‘rare’, never before seen, badge.

Still, all of the above are just my personal opinions at the end of the day, and there will be plenty of other collectors out there with differing views, the expression of which makes this Forum such an asset.

Very best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 01-02-15 at 01:54 PM.
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  #10  
Old 01-02-15, 02:42 PM
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Default Leicesters' TF/TA Badge

Martin,

Many thanks for your reply, while I realise that we have to go by the rules to a certain extent regarding what was worn by which unit at a time in the history of that unit, I think there are exceptions to the rule.

It's finding out when and where those exceptions occurred and most of the players in this production are no longer with us, we have to rely on contemporary photographs to ascertain the provenance of items that are not always recorded in the official works.

When I bought a collection of Army Cyclists Corps shoulder titles some while ago there were a pair of ACC titles among them, according to books these were Army Catering Corps which was not formed until 1941, however, a post on this forum produced a photo of a Great War cyclist wearing ACC titles.

I was hoping when I started this thread that somewhere there may be an old Leicestershire T.A. man who said "I remember . . !", but that's wishful thinking .

Regards Rob
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  #11  
Old 01-02-15, 06:10 PM
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Default Doctored Leicesters' badge!

Hello Rob

You’re most welcome, even though I think in this instance we disagree on even the possibility that the badge in question could be an exception. Though you are quite right and there are exceptions out there that do not conform to the official line, something I did acknowledge in my second posting where I said “there are undoubtedly genuine badges that would fall into that category”. It is also true that in the absence of the testimony of the servicemen and women about the badges they wore, we do have to rely on contemporary photographic evidence; particularly where a badge appears to contradict the documentary records.

In this case perhaps there is someone out there that can say, “yes I wore a badge like this, without a top scroll, during the War when I was in the TA”, maybe even with a photo of them wearing such a badge. However, until this happens my personal feeling is that I can see no reasonable cause for a plastic Leicesters’ badge from the Second World War having its “Hindoostan” honour removed, in imitation of a metal badge that was in wear more than twenty years previously! But like I’ve said, this is just my own personal view on matters.

In any event, I thought it might be opportune here to post up this badge (kindly supplied to me by a fellow Forum member), which is the one I mentioned has been deliberately altered from a regular Leicestershire ORs badge with a top scroll so that it resembles a scroll-less TF one:


Apart from having the “Hindoostan” honour removed, it has had its tail voided, as this particular maker’s type invariably comes with an unvoided one, and a crimp mark scored across the top of the vertical shank (slider), again this maker’s type don’t normally have such marks, it has even had false braze holes drilled into it; which should be evident from the image below where the drill has ruptured the front of the bottom “Leicestershire” scroll:


This badge is, without doubt, a ‘fake’, in the sense that it has been doctored to change it from a common one into something a little more scarce. In a strange way, of course, it means this particular badge is probably quite rare, as I can’t see anyone going to all this trouble to change hundreds of such badges, but there could be a handful out there like this?

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 01-02-15 at 07:25 PM.
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  #12  
Old 01-02-15, 07:01 PM
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Smile Faked badges

Martin,

From your excellent photos, I can see that someone has deliberately drilled the braize holes in the badge to give it "age", this sort of thing is obviously practiced by people who wish to add aged processes to badges as well as voiding the tail and carefully removing the top scroll.

My other thought with the plastic badge which is minus the top scroll is, was it worn by a school/Cadet unit?

Many thanks for all members inputs, probably something we will never be sure about, but if it's not highlighted we will never know.

Rob
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  #13  
Old 02-02-15, 10:34 PM
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Default Faked Leicesters’ TF badges

Hi Rob

Glad you liked the pictures of the doctored Leicesters’ badge, though to be honest I’m not much of a photographer! Still, at least they show what I mean about how a perfectly respectable badge has been deliberately vandalised for no other reason than, presumably, to make financial gain. The really surprising thing about this badge is the Forum member who let me have it had actually bought it from a reputable deal, who had sold it to him as a genuine TF badge. Now I realise that we all make mistakes, I often do, and nobody, not even a dealer, can know absolutely everything about military insignia, but you would have thought he would at least have picked up on the rupturing on the bottom scroll!?

Anyhow, as to your latest thoughts on the plastic Leicesters’ badge without its “Hindoostan” honour possibly being worn by a cadet cops, as far as I understood it only two contingents that were affiliated to the Leicestershire Regiment ever wore distinctive badges, these being the Uppingham and Oakham OTCs, and so assumed that all other Leicestershire cadets units just wore the Regiment’s regular badge with its top scroll.

Whilst I admit I don’t know much about cadet contingents, would they have been issued with plastic badges during the Second World War? If so, would they then have gone to all the trouble of removing the “Hindoostan” honours to make them resemble the old TF badges from an era more than twenty years previous? Maybe, maybe not? As you say, its “probably something we will never be sure about”, but I still personally believe the badge in question is unlikely to be a TA one. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one, but, whilst not wishing to hijack this thread, I thought I might be permitted to show you the other badge I talked about:


I’ve never heard of a Leicestershire Regiment TF battalion, either officially or unofficially, having a blackened badge. As I said before, when this one arrived the other week it clearly smelt of acrylic paint, which, in my view, has so obviously been applied in order to turn this fairly common restrike into a ‘scarce’ item. In my opinion, yet another example of someone trying to make financial gain, something I have realised we have to be all too wary of, and which, sadly, also seems to be happening all too often.

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 02-02-15 at 10:53 PM.
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  #14  
Old 03-02-15, 08:37 AM
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As far as cadets go there were examples of cadets wearing the issue dbadge and also their own design inspired by the regular badge. in some cases there were no scroll or a different design where the Hindoostan would have gone. However this was the time of OTCs and pre WW2.

By the mid '40s it was common practice for cadets, both Cadet Bns and School JTCs to wear the regular badge. indeed there are lots of examples where the schoool OTC's dropped their own badges in favour of Regular ones in the 1930s.

By the time these plastic badges were issued in the mid-40s there was no issue over the regular honours and therefore no need/desire to remove them. I have yet to find a picture of a TA or a cadet unit affiliated to the Leicesters not wearing the scroll.

The dealer should know better than to sell it a a genuine TF badge. It's the sort of tall tale I expect coming out of a Northern mill town.

My conclussion is that it is not official, nor the product of unit-approved modification, and therefore has value only as a damaged badge.
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  #15  
Old 03-02-15, 10:21 AM
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Question Leicesters' TF/TA Badge

Alan, Martin,

Many thanks for your posts on this badge, the reason I started it was because I saw another similar badge to mine online.

Now only a complete fool would vandalise a plastic WWII cap badge as these now generally sell for a higher price compared to normal metal badges of the same period. This was not always the case as fifty years or so ago collectors generally dismissed them as junk.

Whilst I understand why people alter modern copy badges by painting them or removing scrolls for financial gain, this badge is a complete mystery to me. I will keep my version on the Leicestershire board as there is always a chance of further information.

Regards Rob
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