HMS

[Sonofacqms]

I have a cap tally with HMS on it which came with some Great War items, does anyone know if this form of security was employed during WWI.

I have always associated this with the Second World War.

All help appreciated, thanks.

Rob

[Mike_2817]

Re: CAP TALLIES - A BRIEF HISTORY by Danny Siggers

http://nhcra-online.org/19c/captallies.html

During the two World Wars various security measures were in force concerning cap ribbons and the need to keep the whereabouts of HM Ships secret.

In December 1914 the Admiral of Patrols issued an order prohibiting the wearing of cap ribbons ashore and in June 1915 men proceeding on leave from battleships, battle cruisers, cruisers and light cruisers refitting were ordered to wear cap ribbons of their depots and not of their ship (Index 24387 and 24403/2 Admiralty Correspondence).

During World War II cap ribbons bearing only the letters "HMS" or HM Destroyers/Submarines" were in use

[Sonofacqms]

Mike,

Thanks for your reply, so the ribbon HMS is WWII and not Great War vintage, interesting as it came with RND items.

Rob

[Mike_2817]

Ah now then. I do know RND wore the following

[engr9266]

That's not to say that when the RND was formed I would assume that they still wore Navy rig until Army uniforms were issued and therefore could have been issued the HMS cap tally until divisonal tallies and or cap badges were made available to them??

[Mike_2817]

Perhaps, But I think the 'Royal Navy Divsion' Cap Tallies were produced for land forces, not 'HMS' [as in ship] which they were not

Yes the RND were issued with Service Dress, but the navy cap was mainly still worn.



Perhaps warrants some research!

[Guzzman]

When the Royal Navy was puy on a war footing at the beginning of the First World War it soon became obvious that more men were mobilised than were needed to man the Fleet. Many of these personnel were members of the Royal Fleet Reserve or the RNVR. These 'surplus' men were amongst the first assigned to the Royal Naval Division when it was formed in late-August 1914. Initially these men wore standard blue naval uniforms, including caps bearing the tally of their parent establishments. A multitude of different cap tallies were therefore in evidence at even company level during the Division's formative period. 'ROYAL NAVAL DIVISION' cap tallies were soon on issue. In December 1914 all officers and men began to be issued with active service uniforms in khaki instead of their former naval blue. Ratings retained a khaki naval-style cap with a tally around it showing the name of their battalion in gold, i.e. 'HOOD' etc. However, the divisional style of tally remained in use with ranks attached at divisional level rather than to battalions and were still to be seen being worn on the khaki sailor's cap as late as 1917. By early-1916 these caps had begun to be replaced by the Army's 1902 pattern stiff SD cap and these were worn with both RND and battalion tallies, but these were eventually replaced with metal battalion cap badges, issue of which started in 1916.

Pete

[Sonofacqms]

Thanks guys for such useful informed help, this tally came with two others, ROYAL NAVAL DIVISION and BENBOW all of which are original. In between the tallies and the cap badges being issued I believe they wore a metal RND title with a numeral above for a short time.

Rob

[Mike_2817]

[Guzzman]

It is interesting to note that the Royal Fleet Reserve ratings who were initially drafted into the RND were mainly ex-RN stokers who were expected to serve a number of years in the RFR following their regular service. To say that they were not keen to serve ashore is an understatement and many immediately requested that they be allowed to serve at sea. Initially this was refused but the subsequent expansion of the Fleet meant that experienced stokers were in great demand and within a year virtually all the RFR stokers had left the RND and returned to sea. Many of the trained personnel of the pre-war RNVR were also subsequently sent to sea. Most of the men who served in the RND during the war had no previous connection with the Navy and, as the recruitment poster suggests, joined the RND directly from civilian life.

Pete

[Postwarden]

Some photos that may shed some light on the use of RND tallies.

Jon

[Sonofacqms]

Thanks to all who answered my question.

Rob