2 x Unknown Buttons

[4966Ian]

Hi folks,

Hope you can help identify these 2 x Unknown buttons from my collection.

1. St George and the Dragon
It reminds me of the 5th Regt of Foot and subsequently the Northumberland Fusiliers mess waiters' button - but without the motto.
Unfortunately, I don't have Dennis Wood's book on insignia of the 5th/Northumberland Fusiliers - to know whether it is shown in there as a Volunteers button etc. or something else altogether.
It also reminds me of the 11th Middlesex Rifle Volunteers - though there is no crown (QVC) above St George.

A point to note is that St George on this button is carrying a sword rather than the more usual lance/spear.

Silvered / Closed Back / Backmark = JENNENS & Co (PoW feathers)
Diameter = 25.5mm

2. Artillery Gun
It is missing the level of detail usually associated with the Gun & carriage on the Royal Artillery buttons - as well not having a 'ram-rod' type device.

Silvered / Open Backed /
Backmark = FIRMIN & SONS Ld 108 St MARTINS LANE LONDON
Diameter = 25.4mm

(N.B. Backmark dates this to circa 1895-1915)

Any help or suggestions gratefully received.

Cheers

Ian

[54Bty]

I think I have seen the gun button somewhere listed as American Civil War variety.

Marc

[Cribyn]

Hello Ian

Like Marc, I think I've seen the artillery button somewhere before. It is not in Norman Litchfield's book on Royal Artillery Buttons but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not British. The backmark is too late for it to be an American Civil War period piece but it could be an ACW commemorative item.

The St George button is a bit of a mystery. As you said it looks like a few other designs but is not 100% right for any of them! There was a St George's Rowing Club in London about the right time period for the backmark on this button and I wonder if there were any other St George's Clubs.

A bit more digging is needed I think.

Roger

[4966Ian]

Hello Roger and Marc,

Thanks for the replies.
Like you both, I had a feeling I had seen the 'Gun' button before, probably on ebay and my memory was that it was described as American.

I have to admit I hadn't considered a non-Military use for the St George button - so that is certainly a good place to start looking.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Cheers

Ian

[Roy]

Hi Ian,

Thanks for sharing these. Two interesting buttons and as usual I'm unable to help as my lack of button knowledge must be somewhat legendary by now..

However I wish you ever luck with your investigations and look forward to any updates that may shed some light on these two.

Cheerio,

Roy

[GTB]

There is also St George's Hospital, although modern buttons have the title.
The Artillery button looks familiar, but I can't pin it down. I seem to think Turkish as a near contender, even with a British backmark.
GTB

[4966Ian]

Thanks GTB,

Hadn't even considered that part of the world. Turkey will give me another avenue to explore.
It's funny how the Artillery button is familiar to us all.

Thanks

Ian

[54Bty]

Could a clue to the identity of button number one, be the rider is holding a sword and not a spear?

***

Found a few similar US Artillery buttons but they all incorporate an Eagle, flag or words.

Marc

[Cribyn]

Originally Posted by 4966Ian

Thanks GTB,

Hadn't even considered that part of the world. Turkey will give me another avenue to explore.
It's funny how the Artillery button is familiar to us all.

Thanks

Ian

Hi Ian

Just a thought but as the artillery button seems familiar to so many, it hasn't been in Button Lines has it? I will spin through my references later on just in case that's where I've seen it.

Roger

[charlie962]

Backmark of the gun button suggests post 1894, ie 1895-1915. So not American civil war!
Charlie

edit sourced dates on this excellent site

[Chipper]

Hi Ian,

while not exactly the same (and yours seems much older) the 1st button resembles this "blazer button":

http://bensonandclegg.com/st-george-...-blazer-button

I also had a look in Wood's book, and the closest match was as you mentioned, mess livery button #661, but the sword is thin, and it has "PATA VOGANT" inscribed at the top. It's not in the Volunteer section either.

Not much help, but at least it rules out something.

Cheers, Tim