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#16
16-09-14, 11:06 AM
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Quote; This is on the BBC News website:
After a Yes vote The Scottish government argues immigration policy agreed at Westminster does not suit Scotland's needs, pledging to take in more refugees and to "welcome people who want to come to work and live in Scotland". It has pledged: The Scottish borders would remain open to all EU nationals, as it would be an EU member. A Scottish Asylum Agency would be established to oversee applications. Dungavel Detention Centre in Lanarkshire would be closed and dawn raids would be ended. British citizens resident in Scotland would be Scottish citizens. Citizenship by descent would be available to those whose parent or grandparent qualifies for Scottish citizenship. Dual citizenship with the UK would be permitted. UK passports would be recognised until they expiry. line I wonder how many of those currently trying to get into the UK illegally from France would head for Scotland if it became independent ? P.B. Peter, If this article got widespread coverage in Scotland do you think it would help the YES vote? That policy would worry those living in my part of the UK.. However, it would create lots of jobs along Hadrian's wall for the UK Border Agency. Eddie Last edited by ebro; 16-09-14 at 11:17 AM. 
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#17
16-09-14, 11:59 AM
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Says it all really.....
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Cofion gorau Gruffydd M-J www.paoyeomanry.org.uk "A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry" Lechyd da pob Cymro 
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#18
16-09-14, 12:07 PM
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It's pointless claiming that the RBS is a Scottish bank as it isn't. It is still registered in Scotland, yes but the haste to move it to England post 'Yes' is because of NatWest and the other English trading entities. As for 'bailing out' a Scottish bank - the alternative was let NatWest go bust. A bank with nothing Scottish about it (well, 3 branches in Scotland, if that counts). Would England have preferred that?
As for Darien, that was a situation forced on Scotland by English policies being dictated by big business, in the guise of the East India Company. déjà vu. Nothing new there, as England leaches off Scotland constantly. No wonder there's resentment up North. Most Scots came South for work I believe. Why was that? Anything to do with closure of industries in the North to support the South (applies to N. England too). I hope they do vote Yes and prove the predictions wrong. Good luck to them.
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#19
16-09-14, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
"Scotland at the end of the Seventeenth Century was in a state of crisis. Decades of warfare had combined with seven years of famine to drive people from their homesteads and choke the cities with homeless vagrants, starving to death in the streets." Seven years of famine. I blame the English!
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Orationem pulchram non habens, scribo ista linea in lingua Latina
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#20
16-09-14, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
 )Allies to: Spain -Ireland and Scotland (multiple alliances since the Reformation) France - Ireland and Scotland (multiple aid and alliances since the mid 13th century) 1914-18 the Kaiser - Ireland 1939-45 - Ireland (allowing U-Boats to refit in Irish ports, etc, etc.) Now I don't know how you think that should work. When England was in Europe defending it's oversea's possessions, Scotland allowed itself to be a back door to our rear, just like Ireland. I'm sorry, but when we get back, someone has to pay the price of trying to kick us when we were distracted. No offense to any Irish or Scotsman, but fact's are fact's. It's alright saying "my enemies enemy, is my friend", but be prepared when that enemy next door come's home a little anoyed......  One can develop a disdain for the welfare of the rebellious, even after 1707.
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#21
16-09-14, 04:20 PM
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Simon,
If I didn't know better I would think you had joined Mr Salmond's YES campaign. Are you reminding the Scots that England wants to dictate what friends Scotland chooses, past & present, surely that must be a recipe for a vote for independence. As for the Irish allowing U Boats to refit during WW2, this was a decision made by an independent and Neutral country. They also opened an air corridor over Ballyshannon to the Allies to assist them hunt for the U Boats in the Atlantic from their bases in Fermanagh. How neutral can you get  .Eddie
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#22
16-09-14, 04:40 PM
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Hi Eddie
If everyone was to be held accountable for their history, we'd get nothing done in this world and no one would ever buy a BMW, if you get my drift. But it has seemed to me all along ever since I was old enough to know about Scottish ambitions of independence, that they hold a grudge for what we did, and as usual the English in their ever accommodating approach to life don't. It's the animosity of things like " 7 years of famine, I blame the English" that colours the Scot's decision. I remember when I went to Scotland about 10 years ago. I could certainly feel the cold vibe's in Edinburgh. What I was pointing out is at that time, we ALL had reason's to do what we did. I mean the Duke of Cumberland did what he had to do to put down a rebellion. There you go. I wasn't trying to justify what we did due to Scottish treachery during that period. This decision should be made by them for the time's we all live in now, and not for what my ancestors did to them. They chose the wrong allie. Just like Italy really in WW2. They can't cry we were a southern bully. On the corridor being opened up, I remember reading it was opened after threats that if they didn't, the neutrality thing would be under question. But that's what we had to do in desperate times. Just like invading Iceland, a neutral country also in 1940....:roll eyes: Cheers Simon.
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#24
16-09-14, 05:00 PM
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trouble is Eddie, the Scot's version of history is all based on Gibson's "Braveheart", and we all know how factual that was............  It's not the English version, I've never dealt in anything but fact, even when the Brit's are in the wrong. I'm not proud of everything we've done. But saying we subjugated them because we thought it was a fun thing to do.......that's just not the case. Hence the reason for the 1707 agreement. We had bigger fish to fry elsewhere. There is a reason why there is still a law on the book's in York, that any Scotsman seen with a bow can be killed on sight. None of us were angels in our enemies lands. But should I hold that against them. I don't, or else one of my largest collections wouldn't be the Scottish regiments. Cheers Simon.
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#25
16-09-14, 05:11 PM
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I'm Welsh but I still shake my head when I hear about all the people driven out of Scotland by the English during the highland clearances. The people who owned the land and decided that sheep paid better than peasants were in the main the Scottish lairds and clan leaders. I suppose being a Welshman I could go back to the days when even our language was banned but I look at the benefiss that union has brought to all the countries.
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#26
16-09-14, 05:20 PM
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My only other comment on this Eddie, to your question is yes. If you accepted a very large amount of money in 1707 to bail out your bad decisions, (same as RBS in 2009) and swore allegiance to the crown. I do expect to have some say in your choice of friends, if your choice leads to invasion from European enemies (i.e. France) from my northern borders. Not sure what all the ex-military members of the forum would say, but that is seen in many walks of life, even in today's world as a treacherous thing to do....no? ....Don't take the money and then bury something sharp in your neighbours back less than 36 years later, while England was at war in Europe. This is no English version of history, but fact. I think if anything, if the rest of the UK was also asked if we wanted them to stay, and we took this ancient animosity approach to the decision making process, the vote would be a travesty. As that is not a set of reasons' to vote "yes" or "no" in today's world.
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#27
16-09-14, 05:24 PM
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#28
16-09-14, 06:42 PM
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1. The vast majority of Irish people north and south supported the war effort in WW1 and this is borne out by the fact that c.240,000 Irish people participated in the war on the side of the UK.Also Remember that approx 35,000 Irish died in WW1, the 1500 who went on to the streets of Dublin in 1916 in no way reflects the prevailing attitude of the Irish people in WW1. 2.The uboats myth if you could link a reputable source for this, I would be grateful, I have never found one Robert Fisk's thoughts on the uboat myth are quite illuminating and I quote "We knew that Ireland was neutral in the Second World War, and heard that Taoiseach de Valera had paid a visitor's condolence to the German legation on Hitler's death and an Irishman on the west coast had refuelled German U-boats. Ireland was indeed neutral and de Valera did his make his notorious condolence visit. But the U-boat story was a lie. Years later, studying for a doctorate in politics at Trinity College, Dublin, I spent five months travelling down the Irish west coast to investigate the U-boat claims. I read all the Irish government's coastwatching reports from 1939 to 1942. I visited old men and women in remote villages from Donegal to Cork, some of them wartime coastwatchers. In the archive at Kew I'd found records of the Tamara, a Royal Navy tugboat disguised as a trawler that went vainly hunting for U-boats along the Irish west coast. Lieutenant Commander W R Fell of the Tamara even went ashore on Sherkin Island in Co Cork where his vessel "was boarded by the most plausible scoundrels. They begged or stole anything in reach ... one old man reputed to be worth thousands had trousers patched with paper. All would commit any crime for a shilling". I eventually tracked down villagers from Sherkin who remembered the wartime pauper – his name was Louis Nolan and he was the harbourmaster's brother – but they said it was Nolan's shirt that was patched with newspaper, not his trousers. And there were no U-boats. So thoroughly did I check out every possible lead that I came up with three U-boat stories, at least one of which is absolutely copper-bottomed. The first was a U-35 which sailed in to Dingle Bay on 4 October 1939 to put ashore the crew of a Greek ship called Diamantes which it had sunk 40 miles west of the Skelligs. Those were the days when U-boat crews tried to be honourable to their victims, who in this case were duly taken by the police to Michael Long, the Lloyd's agent in Dingle. Local rumour, however, suggested that the U-boat captain had bid his captive goodbye with the astonishing adieu: "Give my best wishes to Micky Long." Had he been one of the many German "tourists" travelling in Ireland before the war? When my thesis was later published as a book, I received a polite letter from the long-retired U-boat captain. He had never been to Ireland before the war, he told me. And he had never heard of Michael Long. In Kerry, a man called Michael O'Sullivan said that as a boy he had been taken by an old man with a donkey and cart loaded with a pig, cabbages and potatoes to Brandon Creek where a U-boat crew collected their supplies. O'Sullivan said the crew had ribbons down the back of their hats – this was a normal part of German naval rating's uniform – and I thought this gave credibility to his memory. There was also a fisherman in Donegal who told me that a barnacle-encrusted U-boat once surfaced beside him and that the crew asked for fish – and paid for the catch in Irish currency! But Hugh Wren, official coastwatcher between Ballybunnion and Dingle between 1939 and 1944, remarked to me,"Most of the submarines had been seen in pubs." Yet the stories grew after the war. Only a few years ago, The Independent's letters page was filled with readers discussing the refuelling of U-boats by Irishmen. I wearily ignored it all. But I understand how this happens. A plausible story turns into a true story, even if it's a lie." end quote As for the referendum, I always thought there would be a considerable No majority, but now I am not so sure. I also wonder about the repercussions within Scottish society after the vote , will there be divisions that were not there before? Or will there be new alliances?(Scottish Labour,Banks, Galloway,and the Orange Order for example  )
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#29
16-09-14, 07:03 PM
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My apologies Connaught, I stand corrected. Maybe the U-Boat stories are mythical, but I thinks it's more to do with leanings towards any enemy of England when our back's were turned.
May not U-boats, but plenty of other machinations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_R...n_World_War_II Overall, my points are that to complain of English actions over the last 600 years, and hold it against us now as regards the Scots are, has to be put in the context of the wrong choice of friends in our interactions over the years, and has repercussions. Especially as I have pointed after you've taken the King's shilling. The referendum should be only the future and not the past. I take offence at the animosity. Simon. Simon.
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#30
16-09-14, 07:43 PM
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No problen Simon, every nation has its misconceptions/inaccuracies in their historical narratives,no nation can be excluded in this regard.
A good book about Irish neutrality http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Book...reen%2BCurtain I am always worried about the accuracy of Wiki but here is another link worth looking at. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eme..._the_Emergency Two questions, do you think that the relationship between Scots and English has now fundamentally changed? and do you see a schism looming in Scottish society?
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