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#31
11-02-11, 04:34 PM
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Hello gentlemen,
I am, with the intention of it being a brief visit, but a long post, back..... Firstly, I have been and still am, very humbled at the number of good wishes etc from so many friends that I am struggling to understand what I have done to earn your friendship, unless of course, it's because the elastic on my dummy stretches further than anyone elses' ????? But, to keep in keeping with my reputation, I am posting for purely selfish reasons, ie, me..... We have a lot of very creditable members who have spent a lot of time and energy in researching their interests, so much so, that they put most of us to shame but this fact alone throws up so many complications that some times, ordinary people like myself, come very close to imploding with all the contradictions. This is such a case, one member, Griff, has spent countless hours on his beloved regiment and branched out to the 1R.D.'s with the same ' gusto ', I doubt if anyone can deny his sincerity and passion and yesterday I tried his patience because I wasn't satisfied with his answers. I recently bought a Greys arm badge described by the seller ( a very well known and mainly trusted gentleman to boot ), as solid silver, after checking and then contacting him to tell him that he had overlooked the silver test, the badge was in fact, cast nickel, he agreed to halve the price and I used that refund to help buy a Mess Dress LDY rank badge from him, I still trust him. Griff, as you can read, has dismissed the badge and I don't want to stand toe to toe with him over this issue, after all, what do I know ? and I would like Griff to explain what he means when he says that these might be part of an old batch, ie, does that mean that they were produced for wear but never used ?? surely that would make them official ?? The point Griff makes about the Tudor crown not being worn because the regiment was formed in 1958 may well be valid but surely there are some regiments who wore the King's crown after Elizabeth II came to the throne ?? My main concern is due to the fact that I spent a lot of money on Lt. Col. Robin Hodge's book where this particular badge is shown and there are two discriptive paragraphs, so where would Robin Hodges get his information from, there are several posts from the past talking about K.& K., John Gaylor, the Bloomers, Cox etc, etc, having errors but with a relatively new book, surely these errors should not be made. There you go gentlemen, can anyone come down on my side, this rank badge was quite expensive ( to me anyway ), I don't want to contact the seller for the second time in a fortnight with such bad news and Griff please humour me ?? Dave. 
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#32
11-02-11, 04:59 PM
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Hi Dave
The simple fact of the matter is that the arm badge itself was designed by a 9th/12th Royal Lancer RSM (under orders from the Colonel of LDYPAO) .... he did this in the early 1960's. He took the design from both badges of the Senior Regiments and made the design as seen today. His design had the St Edwards crown right from the start. The badge itself was not worn by the regiment until the start of 1963 in both the metal and bullion versions. Prior to this date the Regiment wore the LYPAO or DY NCO Arm badges from 1958, Leics Squadrons wore the DY and the Derby Squadrons wore the LYPAO arm badge to show unity. So...... considering the original design started life bearing the St Edwards crown right from the drawing board and that the arm badge was first worn nearly 10 years after HM's coronation..... i find it hard to believe that this sort of error by a manufacturer would have been made? I have only "ever" seen QE2 bullion arm badges on original blues........ my own included. Its curious also that you never see a "worn" version of the KC Arm badge..... they all look in mint condition considering they are nearly "50 Years Old" allegedly  Below is the correct NCO arm badge, as worn by the Regiment and later Squadron.....  There is a genuine LDYPAO NCO arm badge for sale here: - eBay No: 380315861364 its been up for 3 weeks @ £14.99 (relisted twice by Robbie)
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Cofion gorau Gruffydd M-J www.paoyeomanry.org.uk "A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry" Lechyd da pob Cymro 
Last edited by GriffMJ; 11-02-11 at 06:43 PM.
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#33
11-02-11, 06:15 PM
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Hi Dave,
There are various files in Kew that I have read where it categorically states that the Queen (Elizabeth II) requested that her initials and cypher were to be used along with the St. Edward's Crown after the passing of her father. If I remember, this was requested well before her coronation and soon after her fathers funeral. However, she also went on to say that such a change was not to be immediate and only when existing stocks of all items from were exhausted was the new crown and cypher to be used. I believe the examples given was stationary and the like but would have also included cap badges and even letter boxes. However, where new stocks were required then the new items were to be updated accordingly. As such, any new badge since this request would have been designed with the St. Edward Crown. If the badge in question was newly designed in the 1960's then without doubt it would have received the St. Edwards Crown in it's design and not the previous Tudor version. Note though my comment re: existing stocks and exhausted - yes, units did continue with the Tudor Crown in Elizabeth's reign but only where stocks of such badges existed - new badges would have recieved the St. Edward Crown. Hope this helps. Regards Chris
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#35
12-02-11, 01:11 AM
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Hi Dave,
Very nice to see you back, although I note that the reason doesn't exactly radiate sweetness and joy! I guess that this is an example of the saying that "no one is infallable",not even the best dealers. Bad luck for this particular dealer to have two instances of goods not as described in such a short space of time and from the same customer. I am sure that if he is a decent chap and wishes to to retain the respect that you mention that he will do the right thing. I understand though that it will give you no joy though to have to go through the process. I don't think, as you indeed seem to accept, that Griff's explanation can be argued with, so should the dealer be pointed in this direction I would say it is an open and shut case. Another example of the benefit to us collectors and the dealers alike of the of the knowledge and efforts of the members of this forum. Welcome back Dave and lets hope that your next post/thread has a more positive outcome for you mate. Regards as always. Ry
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#36
12-02-11, 08:13 AM
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Another point of interest is that if you look at the AA LDYPAO arm badge the wreath looks a bit lop sided..... this is due to Gaunt and Firmin remaining faithfull to the original drawing from the RSM. The RSM was not a draughtsman and could not get the symetrical balance right and therefore this found its way into the finished badge
 If you look at the right hand wreath it looks thinner than the left...... the same can be found in the original drawing. The leaves out of the top (and just below) of the "AFRICA" scroll have been badly copied from the LYPAO c1908-15 wreath badge. 
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Cofion gorau Gruffydd M-J www.paoyeomanry.org.uk "A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry" Lechyd da pob Cymro
Last edited by GriffMJ; 12-02-11 at 08:21 AM.
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#37
12-02-11, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
I have placed a bid for the one you have indicated, it's a third of the price I paid for the ' wrong un ', I hope that no-one decides to bid against me but of course they would be fully entitled to ? Dave.
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#38
14-03-11, 12:34 PM
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Just purchased this badge, its a copy...... probably the only copy I have ever seen of the LDYPAO cap badge. I have seen another of this type about 3-4 years ago..... its is "possibly" a Regimental copy and thats why I made the purchase. It "might" be a white metal copy for the SNCO's (instead of a CHROME version)....... but what ever its is....... its the only copy I have every seen of the regiments Cap badge and it does have a place of reference in the collection
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Cofion gorau Gruffydd M-J www.paoyeomanry.org.uk "A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry" Lechyd da pob Cymro
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#40
14-03-11, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
But at the very least....... its one I can show as an example. The other thing is that I have collected just about all the cap badges for the LDY, I am looking for a "chrome'd" Gaunt bi-metal now ..... like Stephen (Badjez) has. Also a better example of the Officers Cap badge, I have one that has had all the gilt polished off.
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Cofion gorau Gruffydd M-J www.paoyeomanry.org.uk "A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry" Lechyd da pob Cymro
Last edited by GriffMJ; 14-03-11 at 01:41 PM.
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#41
15-03-11, 11:04 AM
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I have now bowed to Griff's superior knowledge and deleted my Tudor crowned rank badge from my collection.
His explanations, although making sense have really " got my goat " and if they turn out to be true, there is going to be one hell of an angry little bunny writing his opinions on this matter........ Dave.
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#42
15-03-11, 11:36 AM
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Gentlemen
Just to make things "Crystal" The Official Bullion Badge makers to both the LYPAO and LDYPAO for both Officers badges and NCO Arms badges is:- Hand & Lock Margaret Street London LDYPAO Officers beret (Army Blue) & side cap (Scarlet) ref: MIL.016, pattern dated 24th of June 1957 direct from the LDYPAO Regiment to Hand & Lock. LDYPAO NCO Arm badge (Scarlet/QE2 Crown), pattern dated 3rd of August 1962 direct from Regiment to Hand & Lock. Hand & Lock still supply these badges today and can be contacted via their website here -----> http://www.handembroidery.com/ You might also want to paste into the Hodges book (if you have it), the following "correct" badges:-
__________________
Cofion gorau Gruffydd M-J www.paoyeomanry.org.uk "A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry" Lechyd da pob Cymro
Last edited by GriffMJ; 15-03-11 at 12:20 PM.
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#43
15-03-11, 05:40 PM
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A huge thanks to Griff for his time and effort in finally getting to the bottom of why the Tudor crowned rank badge is illustrated in Robin Hodges' book ( British Army Badges ), despite being completely spurious.
In Griff's messages to me, his reasons for this happening were dressed up somewhat but basically, Robin Hodge was conned, this badge was in a drawer somewhere, it may even have been sewn onto a uniform but it definitely is not, as Griff puts it " pukka ". Well that's great, what a carry on, what is the point of buying books as reference tools and expensive books to boot, only for some chump to try to pull a fast one like this, not only try but to succeed ! I wonder how Robin Hodge took the news, being cynical, I can imagine it would be a case of shrugging ones shoulders, oh what bad luck, some poor plonker read the book and believed every word in it and so on. Griff's advice to me was not to be too upset, well I'm not only very upset but I am also very disappointed that people charged with knowing what's what, can act in this manor, even the section was signed off as genuine by a Captain and Squadron Sergeant Major in the LDY, what a complete farce. Am I going on a bit, too right I am, adults acting like school boys comes to mind, what a ' hoot ', what's the point I have to ask ??? Rant over, anyone want a crap badge ?? Dave. 
Last edited by davec2; 15-03-11 at 05:51 PM.
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#44
15-03-11, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
All reference books have errors in them and I'll guarantee mine will have too and its not even published yet. Hopefully they will be small and minor but errors it will have. I have been quite harsh on leaving out certain badges too that members here swear were issue items. Closer looks dictate usually a LB&B unofficial commission with a dodgy Timings maker mark more like... The latest was a KC Para badge sworn to be official issue. Well it may well have ended up in the stores but officially made it most certainly was not. Just the way things go I suppose but in the case of your badge the issue is the design type over era of manufacture - hopefully this is far better explained when I eventually get my book finished. Regards Chris
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#45
15-03-11, 07:06 PM
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Hi Chris,
I understand what you are saying, I'm not naive enough to think everything should be black and white or as written down, my disappointment is in the people who, in this case, have ruined a section of a great book, either by design or accident. If by design then I find that mind boggling and if by accident, they shouldn't have been in the position to approve something they were not sure off, as a past member used to say..... simples.. The men who signed off the section in question, were at the very least, irresponsible and it cost me because I used the book to buy a badge described in said book. In my opinion, I have every right to be annoyed and every right to complain about it, if others feel I'm overdoing it, well, we all have our own opinions and they are entitled theirs..... Dave.
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