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17th AND 21st Lancers Victorian Plates
Hi, Gents -- Took these in trade and will be selling them as my interest is aviation, but had some questions about something noticed in hindsight.
The details on the Crimean 17th plate are very sharp, so this is clearly die-struck. But the badge on the 21st plate is cast. Were these done in India on the way home? I heard the officers were in quite a hurry to get their first battle honour up (such that no em's got this pattern), but I'm not sure where they were posted after the Sudan or where this was made. Having said that both plates have pretty good provenance-- The 17th belonged to Trumpet Major Tom Romans, BEM, who was given the plate when he left the Regiment, and displayed it in his pub "the Royal Tournament" in London for many years. The 21st is ex-Walter Lambert Collection, he the ex-chairman of the Crown Imperial Society. His collection was sold at Wallis & Wallis. I have a DVD of Graham Lay on Roadshow fawning over both at Highcliffe-on-Sea in 2005. With my handy remote I can freeze on a close-up of the 17th and see, by the toning pattern, that it hasn't been switched meantime. The BBC crew did clean both up a bit so they would read better on camera. There was no close-up of the 21st on the programme. But my main question is the cast 21st plate. Thanks for your help. Last edited by Aerowallah; 06-11-14 at 02:08 AM. |
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#3
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#4
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Wow, just wow,two of the nicest helmet plates I have seen for many years
PL |
#5
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Lovley
Here is a Motto that is very similar to the one on the Officers plate.... similar in size as well. Possible period NCO Arm badge.... don't know really?
__________________
Cofion gorau Gruffydd M-J www.paoyeomanry.org.uk "A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry" Lechyd da pob Cymro |
#6
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Magnificent, regarding your question, India and Sudan would be most unlikely, I would have thought Great Britain or Germany.
[QUOTE=Aerowallah;260591]Hi, Gents -- Took these in trade and will be selling them as my interest is aviation, but had some questions about something noticed in hindsight. The details on the Crimean 17th plate are very sharp, so this is clearly die-struck. But the badge on the 21st plate is cast. Were these done in India on the way home? I heard the officers were in quite a hurry to get their first battle honour up (such that no em's got this pattern), but I'm not sure where they were posted after the Sudan or where this was made. Having said that both plates have pretty good provenance-- The 17th belonged to Trumpet Major Tom Bemans, BEM, who was given the plate when he left the Regiment, and displayed it in his pub "the Royal Tournament" in London for many years. The 21st is ex-Walter Lambert Collection, he the ex-chairman of the Crown Imperial Society. His collection was sold at Wallis & Wallis. I have a DVD of Graham Lay on Roadshow fawning over both at Highcliffe-on-Sea in 2005. With my handy remote I can freeze on a close-up of the 17th and see, by the toning pattern, that it hasn't been switched meantime. The BBC crew did clean both up a bit so they would read better on camera. There was no close-up of the 21st on the programme. But my main question is the cast 21st plate. Thanks for your help. |
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Thanks for the comments.
But has anyone seen this "second pattern" plate before and was it cast or die-struck? and where were the 21st stationed immediately after the Sudan? |
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I have seen an identical plate and the regiment returned to Great Britain in 1899.
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#9
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Identical--meaning cast like this. Thanks for the info, Frank. That's reassuring.
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#10
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Yes, indentical in all respects, when they arrived home, they were treated like heroes and must have looked quite magnificent in the French grey dress uniforms.
What you must remember is that the companies that retailed your plates are not always the companies that actually made them, for example, you will find items sold by Roger's or Hobson's etc but they both contracted work out to other provincial companies and silversmiths, sometimes, even German ones, then they merely added their own name before selling the pieces in their showrooms. Last edited by Frank Kelley; 01-05-14 at 07:25 AM. |
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G'day Aerowallah
My first reaction is as the others, WOW !! I cant find one of my regt histories for 17/21 Lancers, however the 21st Lancers were not sent to the Boer War on account of their service in the Soudan, I believe that they were in UK. I know that they were in India during WW1 because they get an Indian General Service medal with the bar North West Teritories. They were still in India at the time of amalgamation in 1922. Re the 17th Lancers plate Im sorry to say that Im not happy with it. It is quite different to 3 that I have photographs of, all of which are on Lance Caps, one of which I photographed in the regimental museum in 1978. This one is on a William 4th period lance cap and its matching red officers uniform is beside it. One is a photograph of an officers Lance Cap sold by Wallis & Wallis and was shown in their September 1985 Callander, the other is on the front cover of Art & Antiques Weekly from 21st April 1979, this Lance Cap was from the collection of Roy Butler at the Military Heritage Museum, Lews Sussex Firstly the rayed plate looks like an OR's plate not an Officers plate. In 2 of the photos the plate has a flat band around the base, the rays do not extend to the base of the plate. The style of the Motto is that of a modern Motto with the OR GLORY on a scroll across the ends of the bones, this form of Motto was introduced C1896, where as in the photos I have the Motto is on a seperate and different shaped scroll. It is also different to the mottos on the plates after 1857, the bones are single straight bones with divided ends like they have a small V attached to the ends. These Mottos have the Motto on a scroll over the ends of the bones. The shape of the bones is as per a current Motto where as the old plates have straight single bones with the top ends turned down at an angle.with the bones attached on the underside of the jaw. The lower ends have a 3 part "clubbed" end. I have a similar large sized Motto, however, without the Motto, which I obtained from the regimental museum curator in 1978. Very early versions of the Motto have the bones behind the skull and the Motto was on a seperate scroll below the skull and bones. Further the fitting of the scroll and leaves below the coat of arms is over accentuated, in my photographs the scroll and leaves is nearly straight rather than being curved over the top of the skull of the Motto. I hope that this helps. Regards Phil. Last edited by Lancer 17; 03-05-14 at 09:58 AM. |
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Sorry this got in twice so has been deleted..
Regards Phil. |
#13
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G'day
My first reaction is as the others, WOW !! I cant find one of my regt histories for 17/21 Lancers, however the 21st Lancers were not sent to the Boer War on account of their service in the Soudan, I believe that they were in UK. I know that they were in India during WW1 because they get an Indian General Service medal with the bar North West Teritories. They were still in India at the time of amalgamation in 1922. Re the 17th Lancers plate Im sorry to say that Im not happy with it. It is quite different to 3 that I have photographs of, all of which are on Lance Caps, one of which I photographed in the regimental museum in 1978. This one is on a William 4th period lance cap and its matching red officers uniform is beside it. The 1 is a photograph of an officers Lance Cap sold by Wallis & Wallis and was shown in their September 1985 Callander, the other is on the front cover of Art & Antiques Weekly from 21st April 1979, this Lance Cap was from the collection of Roy Butler at the Military Heritage Museum, Lews Sussex Firstly the rayed plate looks like an OR's plate not an Officers plate. In 2 of the photos the plate has a flat band around the base the rays do not extend to the base of the plate. The style of the Motto is that of a modern Motto with the OR GLORY on a scroll across the ends of the bones, this form of Motto was introduced C1896, where as in the photos I have the Motto is on a seperate and different shaped scroll. The shape of the bones is as per a current Motto where as the old plates have straight single bones with the top ends turned down at an angle.with the bones attached on the underside of the jaw. The lower ends have a 3 part "clubbed" end. I have a similar Motto, however without the motto which I obtained from the regimental museum curator in 1978. Very early versions of the Motto have the bones behind the skull and the Motto was on a seperate scroll below the skull and bones. Further the fitting of the scroll and leaves below the coat of arms is over accentuated, in my photographs the scroll and leaves is nearly straight rather than being curved over the top of the scroll. I hope that this helps. Regards Phil. |
#14
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Thanks for your comments, Phil. If I read you right, you are comparing design elements on this plate to other period/pattern plates. Has anyone seen another example of the 1846-55 "Crimean" pattern plate to enable an apples to apples comparison?
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#15
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Just from a glance at your photographs I would not have any issues with either of the plates.
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