Royal Warwicks, cut down or messed up?

[High Wood]

This clearly started life as a Royal Warwickshire Regiment cap badge but, given that the title scroll has been removed and the slider cut down, I wonder if it was used as a beret badge.

[leigh kitchen]

Too big to be a "make do" collar badge substitute?

[Toby Purcell]

I believe that for a period Officers (and some warrant officers) of the regiment wore such cut down badges on the coloured field service cap in lieu of a collar badge.

[Staffsyeoman]

There are also several examples in film and television of the late 50s and 60s of a Royal Warwicks collar being worn as a cap badge; for example by Gerald Harper as the Adjutant of the camp where the gang steal weapons under the guise of an inspection in The League of Gentlemen (1960). Film and TV costumiers can be inventive...

[High Wood]

Thank you for your informative replies. The film prop angle is something that I hadn't thought of.

I would be keen to know further details about a cut down badge being worn by officers on the FSC. Do you have any dates for this and do any photographs survive?

[fwhittle]

I have had two of these two badges with sliders for ages, their is no sign they ever had a scroll, so any info reference there use would be very interesting

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by High Wood

Thank you for your informative replies. The film prop angle is something that I hadn't thought of.

I would be keen to know further details about a cut down badge being worn by officers on the FSC. Do you have any dates for this and do any photographs survive?

The stipulation was to wear a collar badge on the cap in the late 1890s. I have seen photos and an actual cap, but not recently. I recall reading somewhere that sometimes cut down ORs cap badges were used for a time as they did not have the festooned chain tether. The shortened slider seems to chime with that usage.

[Alan O]

Sorry but that's not quite right. Sliders were introduced for the regular army with the NP (Brodrick) hat in 1903. Prior to that they were lugged.

In the warwicks case they wore the FSC with collars and then the lugged badge with the scroll. The scroll remained for the Brodrick and then the peaked cap.

[Cannoneer]

Mounted on a Gunner red/blue diamond this would make an admirable pagri badge for 122 LAA Regt RA(TA), 1943-45 in India/Burma; originally from
5 R Warwicks.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Sorry but that's not quite right. Sliders were introduced for the regular army with the NP (Brodrick) hat in 1903. Prior to that they were lugged.

In the warwicks case they wore the FSC with collars and then the lugged badge with the scroll. The scroll remained for the Brodrick and then the peaked cap.

Yes you’re right Alan and in truth I was aware of the Brodrick cap’s significance in that regard, as this has been raised several times in this forum over the years. I made a mistake referring just to the 1890s. FSC’s continued in use in India after 1902 and the cap enjoyed a renaissance even when not regulation in the years leading up to WW2, eventually becoming formalised as you will know well. It was really this later period that was rather vaguely in my mind, as the early period invariably used the collar badge as mentioned. I/we cannot be sure about the vintage of the badge shown and I’m really suggesting that as the badge is so neatly cut down and the slider clipped it ‘might’ have been for wear on a FSC. Beyond the movie prop option there seems relatively few other logical rationales for its existence, although I’m not a particular aficionado of the insignia of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Cannoneer

Mounted on a Gunner red/blue diamond this would make an admirable pagri badge for 122 LAA Regt RA(TA), 1943-45 in India/Burma; originally from
5 R Warwicks.

That seems a sensible usage Cannoneer. Is there any evidence that the RA unit concerned wore such a badge?

[Cannoneer]

No, I do not have any evidence for a slidered R Warwicks’ collar; however I do have a Heavy Bty pagri with a similar slider. The figures above the “H” do not conform to the standardisation of RA pagri, as the Bty served outside India,and I should date it at about 1927 - sometime before the R Warwicks’ badge.

Transferred to RA in1940, arrived in India1943, and survived various changes of title, with a spell of 8 months in Burma, all mostly in 36 Indian Div.

Whilst it is conjecture, the regiment could have delivered a consignment of 400 collars to a backstreet metal worker, and the “modification” achieved,which was both inventive and imitative of a cap badge fitting. Furthermore it would render the pagri badge to be easily removed for cleaning.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Cannoneer

No, I do not have any evidence for a slidered R Warwicks’ collar; however I do have a Heavy Bty pagri with a similar slider. The figures above the “H” do not conform to the standardisation of RA pagri, as the Bty served outside India,and I should date it at about 1927 - sometime before the R Warwicks’ badge.

Transferred to RA in1940, arrived in India1943, and survived various changes of title, with a spell of 8 months in Burma, all mostly in 36 Indian Div.

Whilst it is conjecture, the regiment could have delivered a consignment of 400 collars to a backstreet metal worker, and the “modification” achieved,which was both inventive and imitative of a cap badge fitting. Furthermore it would render the pagri badge to be easily removed for cleaning.

It is certainly a possibility, but with such small numbers involved, sadly evidence is going to be scarce..

[Nozzer]

Without wishing to be a party pooper, could it not be just broken? I have the two pictured badges in my broken box and although the scrolls are not as cleanly removed, if they are something else I will put them in my collection.

[Toby Purcell]

Yes, possibly, Nozzer. The badge might previously have had its slider crimped and then subsequently been broken. A good point.