2nd VB - Royal West Kent Regiment

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Hello Keith, yes it is interesting to see the photos. I think that where I described was on the High Street that led down from Crystal Palace and on the 227 Bus Route. I do remember the war memorial. It was a surprisingly large plot and I am sure was quite old, perhaps from the days of the TF in 1908, or maybe before, but I am not sure. My overriding memory is of the wall and railings at the front on which the badge was mounted. It was certainly not "The Drum" that you have shown. I do not know anything about the Wells Rd site, but I hope that something can be found out, it is important that these places are recorded.

I'm pretty sure this is the building in question - 64 High Street, Penge. No railings or signage left now though which is a real shame. I found out today a building I used to drive past every day which was the HQ of the Sydenham Rifle Vols. in Perry Vale was only demolished a few years ago. The other building I mentioned was the old Upper Sydenham station house in Wells park Road so no military connections there.

[Toby Purcell]

[quote=Keith Blakeman;142551]I'm pretty sure this is the building in question - 64 High Street, Penge. No railings or signage left now though which is a real shame. I found out today a building I used to drive past every day which was the HQ of the Sydenham Rifle Vols. in Perry Vale was only demolished a few years ago. The other building I mentioned was the old Upper Sydenham station house in Wells park Road so no military connections there.

Yes, that's definitely it Keith, the first time I have seen it for over 40 years. If I recall correctly the entrance we used was to the side of that house as you face it and then we crossed a small concrete yard to the entrance to the drill hall at the rear (it was like a huge garage with doors that could slide open at one end). from memory I think that building that you have posted had an Army Careers Information Office in it for a while. The war memorial is the exact one too. The wall and railings at the entrance were like those behind the memorial.

[Keith Blakeman]

Back to the 'Sartain' postcards. The are all ASC, a Farrier Sergeant I think?

First up this one. No markings on the card other than on the front L.MISSAK. Missak features on another card later but not sure if the subject is the same person.



The next is written "From Harry To Lizzie With Love"



"Trimming feet of Mare with foal. A Native holding the mare. Egypt 1917"



"Foals born on Depot. Egypt 1917"



Unmarked card.



Unmarked card.



I think this card has his service number 16454 on the back. It's probably the earliest card and the shoulder title looks to be a Territorial one but it's unclear.
Can anyone help with his MIC as it takes me hours to navigate the NA site please!!??



More to follow and a few more questions to answer.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Back to the 'Sartain' postcards. The are all ASC, a Farrier Sergeant I think?

First up this one. No markings on the card other than on the front L.MISSAK. Missak features on another card later but not sure if the subject is the same person.



The next is written "From Harry To Lizzie With Love"


"Trimming feet of Mare with foal. A Native holding the mare. Egypt 1917"


"Foals born on Depot. Egypt 1917"


I have one more card which definitely features Harry but I haven't scanned it yet. I'll post as soon as soon as I can but it's unmarked other than what I think is his service number 16454 on the back. Can anyone help with his MIC as it takes me hours to navigate the NA site please!!??

In the first mounted photo he is a Farrier Sergeant but in all the others he is a Farrier Staff Sergeant with a crown above the 3 stripes and horseshoe, except for the last photo that was almost certainly taken in Britain at the beginning of his career.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

In the mounted photo he is a Farrier Sergeant but in all the others he is a Farrier Staff Sergeant with a crown above the 3 stripes and horseshoe.

Assuming these are of the same person, this card has him wearing different rank on each arm ! No markings on this card. Harry front row right.



Another card featuring some of the same Sergeants with Harry front row right again. This is the other card marked L.MISSAK.



A different dog.



Finally another marked with a possible service number but this time 43260. Any help appreciated.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Assuming these are of the same person, this card has him wearing different rank on each arm ! No markings on this card. Harry front row right.

Another card featuring some of the same Sergeants with Harry front row right again. This is the other card marked L.MISSAK.

A different dog.

Finally another marked with a possible service number but this time 43260. Any help appreciated.

The first few photos show the Sergeants' Mess tents with various groups outside. Note the warrant officer with white canvas shoes who would have been the RSM equivalent at that time. Your man Harry has the same badges on his arm but the right side is slightly obscured. The Farriers horse shoe was only worn on the right arm which caused problems when crowns were added and it became common practice in some units (mainly mounted) to lower the position of the horse shoe onto the chevrons themselves. That way the crowns could be in the same position on each arm.

It's interesting to see the use of the folding Field Service Cap in Egypt, an item of head dress that had become less common after the issue of the peaked SD forage cap in 1905. Until the issue of the soft trench pattern forage cap the FSC was useful as it could be easily stowed and not crushed and mis-shapen in cramped tented accommodation.

The Army in Egypt relied a great deal on horses as, unlike on the Western Front, cavalry were found to be still effective there so this group of men, the farriers (and collar makers and harness makers and rough riders), were a vital cog in the military organisation at that time.

With regard to the Service Number try contacting the web master here who specialises in that subject: http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/

The photos are excellent and would be well received in the thread on uniforms and insignia here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...ex.php?act=idx

[grumpy]

Without reproducing all the super photos again, a few points: note the two versions of the horseshoe badge: large worsted [on a mounted shot], and smaller gilding metal.

Gilding metal replaced worsted from about 1907 [for economy, believe it or not] but mixes of materials in one unit were common enough.

Another thing: the not unknown phenomenon of men wearing ranking on only one sleeve, which should have ended 1902 except for full dress. A Sgts group apparently has two men sharing one set of chevrons!

Finally, on its own and without other clues, the crown above chevrons or appointment badge can be a bit misleading as it was a REGIMENTAL badge worn by Household Cavalry .... not suggesting your slightly scruffy subject is HC, of course.

Spike Mays quotes a man in the 1930s as wearing Roughrider spur and the horseshoe: "I can shoe ******* horses at the gallop!"

[Keith Blakeman]

Thnaks Toby and Grumpy, I really appreciate the feedback and there are more to come. I did start to post these on the Great War Forum but didn't receive much of a response which may be due to the lack of glamour of the ASC and the RFA .

I've come up with the following from the National Archives MIC.

Harry Sartain/ASC/ T4/037658 Farrier Serjeant & Farrier Staff Serjeant.

Some of the next cards I'll post feature a Herbert Sartain/RASC/Y342954 Private.

Is there any reason why I can't match up the service numbers to those written on the back of the cards should they be the correct individuals?

Grumpy - the blown up image of the RWK corporal you requested is a few posts further back.

Keith

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

Without reproducing all the super photos again, a few points: note the two versions of the horseshoe badge: large worsted [on a mounted shot], and smaller gilding metal.

Gilding metal replaced worsted from about 1907 [for economy, believe it or not] but mixes of materials in one unit were common enough.

Another thing: the not unknown phenomenon of men wearing ranking on only one sleeve, which should have ended 1902 except for full dress. A Sgts group apparently has two men sharing one set of chevrons!

Finally, on its own and without other clues, the crown above chevrons or appointment badge can be a bit misleading as it was a REGIMENTAL badge worn by Household Cavalry .... not suggesting your slightly scruffy subject is HC, of course.

Spike Mays quotes a man in the 1930s as wearing Roughrider spur and the horseshoe: "I can shoe ******* horses at the gallop!"

In some units the practice built up of Lance Sergeants wearing the chevron on just one arm and that might be the case here. This was done because unlike in scarlets there was no difference between chevrons and at that time sashes were not worn in khaki. It was in part for this reason that sashes were approved for wear in khaki thus providing instant identification of Lance Sergeants on parade.

I generally remove the duplicated photos, as I think you know, but on the last occasion inadvertently omitted to do so. Thank you for slapping my wrist in your inimitable and ever unfailing manner.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

In some units the practice built up of Lance Sergeants wearing the chevron on just one arm and that might be the case here. This was done because unlike in scarlets there was no difference between chevrons and at that time sashes were not worn in khaki. It was in part for this reason that sashes were approved for wear in khaki thus providing instant identification of Lance Sergeants on parade.

I generally remove the duplicated photos, as I think you know, but on the last occasion inadvertently omitted to do so. Thank you for slapping my wrist in your inimitable and ever unfailing manner.

Not at all! Grumpy is as Grumpy does, mustn't disappoint the readers.

I have trawled the GWF thread again on single-sided chevrons ...... it seems without rhyme or reason in general, and all manner of numbers of chevrons and clothing. I even have photos of groups of NCOs in scarlets with NAMED L-Sgts with the sash. Cheshires India 1904 for example. Never say never. Some units in KD distinguished L-Sgts and below by using different colour/ material chevrons, or on facing colour.
Other than the Foot Guards, I wonder how many regiments admitted L-Sgts to the Mess? No mention in 1910 and 1912 RWF SOs...... L-Sgts might not even exist as far as they are concerned! The Seaforths [same period] specifically do make L-Sgts members.
As many will know, Lance-Sergeants disappeared in 1946 except Foot Guards [all Corporals these days], and, even more recently, a sort of L-Sgt equivalent was invented for the Household Cavalry precisely to enable their full Corporals to use Foot Guards Messes. The appointment is called Lance-Corporal of Horse and the badge is three chevrons and the regimental crown. At times, and in some orders of clothing, the crown varies in design to distinguish full CoH.

[Keith Blakeman]

The last of the Harry Sartain cards which I feel he can be positively identified in and probably the earliest. No other information at all on this one, completely unmarked. Harry I'm sure is the seated man in the centre. (It looks like a very young Sid James seated on the right!)



Now things get complicated. This card is dated Bourlay Camp Aug 8/08. It's addressed to H.Sartain in Woolwich and posted in Aldershot. H I'm guessing is probably Harry and the text reads "Dear H. Thanks for the letter see if you can see me in the photo, yours sincerely Herbert.

It's a lovely Gale & Polden card from the earliest days of the Territorial-era, the two smartly dressed NCO's are wearing T/ASC/LONDON titles as are some of the seated men. Apart from the varying hobnail configurations another interesting point is the soldier bottom right has his hand on a carbine.



Finally another card from Herbert, this time to his mother A. Sartain at the same address. Posted in Woolwich the year isn't clear but the stamp is George 5th so it could be anytime between 1910-18. The closest match to individuals between the two cards are: Above - the soldier seated almost in the middle with the pinstriped shirt and on this one the soldier front right. (The man front left does look like a plumped up Harry though!). There could be something between four to twelve years between these cards so identification is very difficult. No T/ASC titles here though, just plain ones and just to confuse things even more, the handwriting here is completely different than the card above but identically matches that of Bob on the two Kent Vols/TA at the start of this thread, hence my keeping it running!!

This one reads " Dear Mother, what do you think of this. just going to dinner don't we look well, hope you are still progressing favourably Love to all Herbert"

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

The last of the Harry Sartain cards which I feel he can be positively identified in and probably the earliest. No other information at all on this one, completely unmarked. Harry I'm sure is the seated man in the centre. (It looks like a very young Sid James seated on the right!)

Now things get complicated. This card is dated Bourlay Camp Aug 8/08. It's addressed to H.Sartain in Woolwich and posted in Aldershot. H I'm guessing is probably Harry and the text reads "Dear H. Thanks for the letter see if you can see me in the photo, yours sincerely Herbert.

It's a lovely Gale & Polden card from the earliest days of the Territorial-era, the two smartly dressed NCO's are wearing T/ASC/LONDON titles as are some of the seated men. Apart from the varying hobnail configurations another interesting point is the soldier bottom right has his hand on a carbine.

Finally another card from Herbert, this time to his mother A. Sartain at the same address. Posted in Woolwich the year isn't clear but the stamp is George 5th so it could be anytime between 1910-18. The closest match to individuals between the two cards are: Above - the soldier seated almost in the middle with the pinstriped shirt and on this one the soldier front right. (The man front left does look like a plumped up Harry though!). There could be something between four to twelve years between these cards so identification is very difficult. No T/ASC titles here though, just plain ones and just to confuse things even more, the handwriting here is completely different than the card above but identically matches that of Bob on the two Kent Vols/TA at the start of this thread, hence my keeping it running!!

This one reads " Dear Mother, what do you think of this. just going to dinner don't we look well, hope you are still progressing favourably Love to all Herbert"

The first two pictures are typical of a Territorial Force annual camp, as practised each summer in order for soldiers to carry out 'collective training' and qualify for their bounty/annual sinecure. In the first photo Harry is wearing the unbleached, canvas fatigue uniform worn by soldiers engaged in duties likely to get their SD mucky (see enclosed photo). Notice the spurs of an ASC 'driver' on the two NCOs standing at left. The last photo shows all the men wearing the leather waistbelt from the 1903 mounted infantry equipment, which was pretty much standard for ASC soldiers.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

Not at all! Grumpy is as Grumpy does, mustn't disappoint the readers.

I have trawled the GWF thread again on single-sided chevrons ...... it seems without rhyme or reason in general, and all manner of numbers of chevrons and clothing. I even have photos of groups of NCOs in scarlets with NAMED L-Sgts with the sash. Cheshires India 1904 for example. Never say never. Some units in KD distinguished L-Sgts and below by using different colour/ material chevrons, or on facing colour.
Other than the Foot Guards, I wonder how many regiments admitted L-Sgts to the Mess? No mention in 1910 and 1912 RWF SOs...... L-Sgts might not even exist as far as they are concerned! The Seaforths [same period] specifically do make L-Sgts members.
As many will know, Lance-Sergeants disappeared in 1946 except Foot Guards [all Corporals these days], and, even more recently, a sort of L-Sgt equivalent was invented for the Household Cavalry precisely to enable their full Corporals to use Foot Guards Messes. The appointment is called Lance-Corporal of Horse and the badge is three chevrons and the regimental crown. At times, and in some orders of clothing, the crown varies in design to distinguish full CoH.

Whatever turns you on 'Grumpy'.

I agree that the practice of marking out Lance Sergeants was not at all universal which is why I said "some units".

I doubt very much that any unit refused Lance Sergeants entry to the Sergeants' Mess, unless they expressly wished not to attend because of the cost of membership, which would be extremely rare and mark a man out as a 'bolshie'. The overriding principle was that if a man carried out the duties of a sergeant then he was entitled to the perks that went with the appointment. The issue for him was how he managed to afford the membership fees, but this was rarely a problem unless he was married (in itself rare at that rank) and in some units I imagine that they might have permitted a reduced membership fee rather like the 'pippage' rule (a graduated levy based upon rank) that applied in officers' messes.

[grumpy]

Brilliant! Special Service Section badge. Very few worsted ones seem to have survived, the white metal version is still to be found.

[Toby Purcell]

Also Keith the last photo from Herbert seems likely to be in the first 3 years of the war. Several of the men are wearing 'simplified' SD jackets with no upper pocket pleats, one has dark brown leather buttons and some seem to have the soft trench cap issued from 1915 on.