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  #1  
Old 04-10-20, 10:51 PM
SemperFi SemperFi is offline
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Default Help Request Please – IWM Badge Collection Question

From what period are cap badges generally from that the IWM displays on its website, please?

I read on the forum that the NWM (later IWM) received much of its cap badge collection during the Great War and then continued adding subsequent badges, badge changes, and etc. after the war going forward.

Specifically, I am trying to determine if a Royal Berkshire badge they display on their website can reasonably be assumed from the Great War. It’s a difficult badge to date because the Regiment’s badge remained largely unchanged from about 1885 to 1959 (with the exception of transitioning from lugs to sliders).

If it’s reasonable to assume it’s likely the IWM Berk’s badge is from the Great War, I want to try to match the IWM die strike to a badge.

My reason for all the above is I want to try and obtain a Great War Berks badge for a ’14 Star and Bar medal trio I own to an Old Contemptible who was killed on the 1st Day of the Somme during the attack on Ovillers. For me it just seems appropriate to try my best to find a Great War period badge for this man and his medals he never wore.

IWM Berks.jpg

Courtesy of the IWM
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30072079

Cheers,
Jay
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  #2  
Old 05-10-20, 12:19 PM
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They still look to have a dodgy Tyneside Scottish 1st pattern badge displayed. Regards, Paul.
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  #3  
Old 05-10-20, 12:26 PM
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You might have luck on The Wardrobe site. Regards, Paul. https://mail.rifles.hps2.datasouth.n..._direction=asc
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  #4  
Old 05-10-20, 02:15 PM
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Well, although the reverse is not shown, the IWM badge does not look like a ww1 issue to me with that tapered slider, which is more indicative of some badges made later into ww2.
You will find many examples of the typical ww1 era sliders on badges throughout this forum; and be aware that many even older badges with lugs were still in wear during ww1 as well.

CB
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  #5  
Old 05-10-20, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SemperFi View Post
From what period are cap badges generally from that the IWM displays on its website, please?

I read on the forum that the NWM (later IWM) received much of its cap badge collection during the Great War and then continued adding subsequent badges, badge changes, and etc. after the war going forward.

Specifically, I am trying to determine if a Royal Berkshire badge they display on their website can reasonably be assumed from the Great War. It’s a difficult badge to date because the Regiment’s badge remained largely unchanged from about 1885 to 1959 (with the exception of transitioning from lugs to sliders).

If it’s reasonable to assume it’s likely the IWM Berk’s badge is from the Great War, I want to try to match the IWM die strike to a badge.

My reason for all the above is I want to try and obtain a Great War Berks badge for a ’14 Star and Bar medal trio I own to an Old Contemptible who was killed on the 1st Day of the Somme during the attack on Ovillers. For me it just seems appropriate to try my best to find a Great War period badge for this man and his medals he never wore.

Attachment 231773

Courtesy of the IWM
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30072079

Cheers,
Jay
I was under the impression that there was a key change in the badge of the Royal Berkshires from the Hart and Oak Tree badge of the Berkshire militia to the China Dragon adopted for the Field Service Cap which was transferred to the khaki Service Dress Cap and through familiarity during the Great War, was adopted as the regimental badge during the inter-war period.

With the suspension of Full Dress and its eventual abandonment, the old 'Hart and Oak Tree' badge was quietly forgotten.
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  #6  
Old 05-10-20, 07:20 PM
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Yes, the IWM sent letters to all units requesting all kinds of badges in 1917 and again in 1919. Some of the units were too busy but some delivered.

The first cap badge for the Berks was Pattern 4434/1896 (sealed on 28th july 1896) and remained so until ?1959
So there will have been umpteen dies.

I can only think that if you get to see the original badge on it's Sealed Card (at either at the IWM or the NAM) to get close to 1914.
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  #7  
Old 05-10-20, 07:36 PM
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I agree with the comments on here. The IWM does have fake badges so it’s advisable not to use them as a benchmark.

Also, how old in service was your Old Contemptible?

Bear in mind unless he was a reservist called back to the colours in 1914 and issued new kit then his cap badge, depending on length of service, will likely have been issued years earlier.

Worth finding out when he enlisted as potentially even an Edwardian badge ‘may’ be more appropriate for your man.
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  #8  
Old 05-10-20, 11:51 PM
SemperFi SemperFi is offline
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Cheers Paul, CB, jf42, Julian, and Luke for your help and feedback--most appreciated! Learn something new every day...fakes even on the IWM site (makes me wonder if they procured some from eBay )!

Luke, my man's records were in the burnt series so my next step is doing a deeper dive into Ancestry and seeing what else I can find. As an aside, I have another Old Contemptible 1 July '16 KIA trio to an 18 year old who signed up in early 1914 when he was 16....

I think a path forward is as Julian, Paul, and CB all suggested (CB, I agree with what you mentioned about the IWM slider--your take confirms that). Now rather than using the IWM as a potential guide, I'll focus on a Berks badge with the right key ID features for the Great War period.

Again, many thanks for your help and input--this forum rocks!
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  #9  
Old 06-10-20, 04:20 PM
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I would welcome thoughts on any of these. Regards, Paul.
P1070085.jpg P1070086.jpg

Last edited by wardog; 06-10-20 at 04:25 PM.
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  #10  
Old 06-10-20, 05:21 PM
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Forgot a Lambourne.
P1070089.jpg P1070090.jpg P1070092.jpg
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  #11  
Old 07-10-20, 01:45 AM
SemperFi SemperFi is offline
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Paul, thanks for posting your pics! All in the top row and 2nd left bottom row all look good to me for pre & approx. Great War period badges. The 2 flanking bottom badges (FN) and 3rd left are?? I say that about the FNs because I think they were still in the badge business after WW1 and the general shapes of their sliders (that's a generalized observation of FN sliders and not specific to your badges). As I understand, Lambourne was only in the badge business during the war, so if that's accurate, then this badge is probably the most definite GW badge (FN and Lambourne are the only MM Berks badges that I've run across thus far).

As you've mentioned in other posts about Berks badges, their tails and chins vary (webbed vs not--like you, I prefer unwebbed variants). I've also noticed scale shapes and patterns vary, the number and appearance of the wide "U"s on their backs vary, the shape along with the number of fins in their gobblers (or whatever the hanging down thing is behind their left foreleg) vary, the number of fins in, and shapes of, their tails vary, and few more things. I have been looking for and examining those types of die variations with the hope of finding matches to badges with known GW provenance.

All the above is why I was kinda longshot hoping the IWM's badges displayed on their website were possibly all mostly Great War. It's definitely a tough badge! Like you, my main interest with badges is the Great War.

Hopefully others will chime in on your badges, as I'm keenly interested in their opinions as well!

Jay

Last edited by SemperFi; 07-10-20 at 02:24 AM. Reason: Added comments to initial reply
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  #12  
Old 07-10-20, 03:08 AM
SemperFi SemperFi is offline
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Paul, here’s one currently on eBay that makes one go hmmm.... Slider is possible, can see The Soldier’s Friend residue, and etc. Yet the polish was used in WWII as well and slider is too ambiguous (IMO). Giving my iPad icon for “I don’t know” a go: 🤷

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Military-Ca...YAAOSw54JffF35

Regards,
Jay
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  #13  
Old 07-10-20, 12:15 PM
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Similar to my Edwardian lugged badge and one next to it. I like it. Different slider- (I usually would want one with a crimp) but it has gold solder in its favour- and does not have a sharp angled 90 degree bend to it- most Royal Berkshire badges don't. Being similar to the Edwardian badge - good chance its Great War period. Regards, Paul.
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  #14  
Old 07-10-20, 03:20 PM
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While it is impossible to be sure, I think it a likely WW1 era badge as well.

CB
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  #15  
Old 07-10-20, 10:48 PM
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Cheers Paul and CB for your opinions! I went ahead and purchased the badge. I'll still keep an eye open for an upgrade that has a crimp and etc.

Jay
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