The SAS peaked cap saga continues.......

[johanwiegman]

Friends,

Robert Miles (New Zealand) wrote an excellent article - with many photos - on SAS dress uniforms for the newsletter of Chute & Dagger UK.

Since this Forum is all about sharing information on badges, this article can be made available (with Robert's permission) on request as the article is too large to upload to the Forum.

Please send me an email at jfwiegman@hetnet.nl to receive the article.

Cheers,

Johan

[REMEVMBEA1]

If as has been suggested this cap was purchased by a member of the SAS from the RAEC supplier , or an ex schoolie, and he then added SAS buttons and badge does this not then make it an SAS hat in the same way as if a schoolie purchased one from an SAS source , added RAEC buttons and then wore it it would be an RAEC hat ? Having not served 25 years but only 15 years I can say without fear of contradiction that if there is anything in the British army that is not uniform it's uniform. My original thought was "What makes it a SAS beret, being supplied by the SAS tailor or being worn by a member of the SAS?

[rhodesianmilitaria]

Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1

...... "What makes it a SAS beret, being supplied by the SAS tailor or being worn by a member of the SAS?

A very good and relative question. It's a bit like saying that post UDI RhSAS berets worn by members of the sqn were all made by Botswana Cap & Helmet Manufacturers in Lobatse, Botswana. In fact while most were made in Botswana a large number of berets worn were made by various UK manufacturers and even a few worn were made by SA manufacturers.

[johanwiegman]

Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1

If as has been suggested this cap was purchased by a member of the SAS from the RAEC supplier , or an ex schoolie, and he then added SAS buttons and badge does this not then make it an SAS hat in the same way as if a schoolie purchased one from an SAS source , added RAEC buttons and then wore it it would be an RAEC hat ? Having not served 25 years but only 15 years I can say without fear of contradiction that if there is anything in the British army that is not uniform it's uniform. My original thought was "What makes it a SAS beret, being supplied by the SAS tailor or being worn by a member of the SAS?

Friends,

If an SAS officer buys a blue cap from whatever source, new or second-hand, and wears this, that makes it a SAS cap.

However, if a dealer or collector takes a blue RAEC cap and sticks on new buttons and a badge to make it a (much more attractive) SAS cap, that ticks me off!

The question is: how do you know the difference? Of course, good provenance is everything.

Cheers,

Johan

[Eddie Parks]

Johan is absolutely right - in this case provenance is everything - with provenance you can say "Yes this is an SAS cap" but without it you cannot say "This is not an SAS cap"; you can only say "This may not be an SAS cap."

And to finally demonstrate the uniform anomalies - Johan says Blues are an expensive item and new officers would not usually buy them because they are so seldom worn.

Well - in the day Sandhurst cadets were/are issued with a No 1 Dress jacket. But it's not a standard OR's jacket - it is an OC's jacket - from memory the difference is that the OC jacket has studs in the collar to facilitate wearing a starched white collar. The material may also be better.

On commissioning the ex-cadet could buy his jacket for a pittance - and for a further pittance his tailor would convert it into an officers blues jacket.

Was it often worn? Well in most regiments the Orderly Officer wore blues from evening guard mounting until breakfast. Which of course means that some junior officers wore blues an awful lot after various run ins with the Adj.

Oh and by the way Herby J's was/is a hatter - never made a uniform in their lives.

The point is that nobody can prove their point either way - but it has been fun hasn't it?

Eddie

Originally Posted by johanwiegman

Friends,

If an SAS officer buys a blue cap from whatever source, new or second-hand, and wears this, that makes it a SAS cap.

However, if a dealer or collector takes a blue RAEC cap and sticks on new buttons and a badge to make it a (much more attractive) SAS cap, that ticks me off!

The question is: how do you know the difference? Of course, good provenance is everything.

Cheers,

Johan

Johan,
I agree completly with all the above, and particually feel that you have hit the nail on the head with your point '' If an SAS officer buys a blue cap from whatever source, new or second-hand, and wears this, that makes it a SAS cap'' as it certainaly does and is equally applicable to uniform and insignia worn by any member of any armed forces irrespective of clothing regulations and the Regimental dress comittee say.

Cheers,
Marcus

[SAS1]

Does that mean if you went to a recognised military tailors and bought new, a correct pattern SAS cap for your collection, and had the tailor apply the correct insignia, it isn't an SAS cap, especially as in this case the cap (sans insignia) is the same as worn by at least one other unit?

[johanwiegman]

Originally Posted by SAS1

Does that mean if you went to a recognised military tailors and bought new, a correct pattern SAS cap for your collection, and had the tailor apply the correct insignia, it isn't an SAS cap, especially as in this case the cap (sans insignia) is the same as worn by at least one other unit?

Hi,

You are right, in this case it is a SAS cap also. As long as you remember that you acquired the cap yourself and that it was never owned or worn by an SAS member. So this is also a matter of personal integrity.

If you sell that same cap to a fellow collector and claim it was worn by an SAS officer "when storming the Iranian Embassy" you are obviously a fraud!

Unfortunately, we all know these practices do occur.

Cheers,

Johan

[johanwiegman]

Originally Posted by Eddie Parks

Johan is absolutely right - in this case provenance is everything - with provenance you can say "Yes this is an SAS cap" but without it you cannot say "This is not an SAS cap"; you can only say "This may not be an SAS cap."

And to finally demonstrate the uniform anomalies - Johan says Blues are an expensive item and new officers would not usually buy them because they are so seldom worn.

Well - in the day Sandhurst cadets were/are issued with a No 1 Dress jacket. But it's not a standard OR's jacket - it is an OC's jacket - from memory the difference is that the OC jacket has studs in the collar to facilitate wearing a starched white collar. The material may also be better.

On commissioning the ex-cadet could buy his jacket for a pittance - and for a further pittance his tailor would convert it into an officers blues jacket.

Was it often worn? Well in most regiments the Orderly Officer wore blues from evening guard mounting until breakfast. Which of course means that some junior officers wore blues an awful lot after various run ins with the Adj.

Oh and by the way Herby J's was/is a hatter - never made a uniform in their lives.
U
The point is that nobody can prove their point either way - but it has been fun hasn't it?

Eddie

Hi Eddie,

You are fully right about Herbert Johnson being a hatter, not a tailor, and never supplied uniforms, only head dress. I do not know which tailors supplied SAS no. 1 dress uniforms, but probably the same names you can still find today.

In the whole discussion about No. 1 dress, I have the SAS Regiments in mind. Of course, no young officers from Sandhurst are going straight to the SAS. Also, the SAS no. 1 Blues are different from the ones worn by cadets.

I do not believe all - certainly not the lower ranking - officers serving with 22 SAS, will have a No. 1 dress. It would be interesting to find out from serving officers what the current practice is as the occasions to wear ceremonial dress would be very few or non-existing.

BTW: In the TA SAS Regiments, not even all ORs have a personal Nr. 2 dress for the same reason.

And, yes: this is a good discussion and we can all learn from it.

Cheers,

Johan

[SAS1]

Originally Posted by johanwiegman

Hi,

You are right, in this case it is a SAS cap also. As long as you remember that you acquired the cap yourself and that it was never owned or worn by an SAS member. So this is also a matter of personal integrity.

If you sell that same cap to a fellow collector and claim it was worn by an SAS officer "when storming the Iranian Embassy" you are obviously a fraud!

Unfortunately, we all know these practices do occur.

Cheers,

Johan

So effectively, if someone then bought an RAEC cap, especially unused, and added their own SAS badge and buttons (rather than let the tailor do it) doesnt that make it an SAS cap by that logic, and therefore dispute what this whole thread is about? Unless it is sold as a cap used by an SAS officer, any cap of the correct pattern with SAS badge and buttons is an SAS cap then is it not? Although one with provenance is of course far more attractive both as a collectible and in value.

So, going back to the original listing mentioned at the top of this thread, the seller claimed it to be an SAS cap as it is of the correct pattern (okay the badges might not be exactly correct to the cap, but that is easily rectified), but he does not claim it was worn by a named member, or indeed by any SAS man, just that it is an SAS cap. By that logic above, the seller therefore has done nothing wrong at all, and it is indeed 'an SAS Officers cap', regardless of maker...

Just goes to show how you can lable someone, when by general agreement he has done nothing untoward...

[swende]

Further to Johan s on Blues been worn. I have spoken to a number of serving 22 members on this and they do not wear Blues , as NCO s , unless getting married.

Police permission is needed for an SAS member to get married in SAS uniform including wearing a SAS beret( dating back to the IRA days ) so few members bother and get married in the Blues and berets of their parent regiments, which they normally hire for the day.

Some members have made up their own blues for the day , adding SAS collars and wings for example to their Para Blues.. Does that make them official SAS Blues ?

The regiments band Blues are also available for use , if and when Blues are required. The general consensus amongst 22 members when questioned about ceremonial uniforms and things like mess dress is astonishment as to why would anyone care about such things , waste of money and a hassle ...

I do not know what officers do, although the CO and RSM generally have Blues for occasions.

[SAS1]

Originally Posted by johanwiegman

Friends,

The Peaked Cap offered on Ebay is not the peaked cap as worn with No. 1 dress by 21 SAS officers during the Coronation and later.

That badge should be silver and gilt, the buttons silver and all peaked caps worn by the SAS were made by Herbert Johnson, not Gieves.

My bet: a Royal Army Educational Corps cap, with SAS badges and buttons.


Cheers,

Johan

So really, on your own admission, this doesnt really stand up. You can only say that for the Coronation and after, examples that you know of are by a different maker, and nothing else.

[johanwiegman]

Friends,

Wot, no logic?

If a dealer takes a RAEC blue cap, sticks on the wrong SAS badge and the wrong SAS buttons and tries selling it as a SAS cap, my earlier definition of 'fraud' applies. Buyers, beware!

Cheers,

Johan

[rhodesianmilitaria]

Originally Posted by johanwiegman

Friends,

Wot, no logic?

If a dealer takes a RAEC blue cap, sticks on the wrong SAS badge and the wrong SAS buttons and tries selling it as a SAS cap, my earlier definition of 'fraud' applies. Buyers, beware!

Cheers,

Johan

I'm in total agreement with you Johan.

[airtrooper]

Me too. Consider reading between the lines. How many clues do some people require ?!