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  #16  
Old 16-09-11, 12:13 PM
HamandJam HamandJam is offline
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There actually exists a card box of V Peniakoff with the names of all active members served in PPA plus attached such as RE. This is owned by the friends of PPA association and it comes to about 200 if I recall well. Cheers JB
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  #17  
Old 16-09-11, 12:52 PM
HamandJam HamandJam is offline
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http://www.popski.org/reference/ppa/personnelregister see here complete personell list JB
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  #18  
Old 16-09-11, 01:07 PM
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seebee1 seebee1 is offline
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Many thanks indeed Paul, JB & Mike, some fascinating information. I am very grateful for the time spent looking at this, a delight to learn more about the PPA. This has re-kindled my interest, somewhere I have images, all probably now well known, I obtained from the IWM back in the 1960's when restoring my WW2 Willys Jeep. The Jeep is now long gone, still about though in middle England, but a fascinating subject for sure. Kind regards, Clive.

PS: I will try to take a better image of the hallmarks later.
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  #19  
Old 16-09-11, 01:43 PM
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Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
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Here's the man himself in a very sedate looking Jeep - with a dangerous mixture of bargrip and other tyres!
Jeep 124 Popski.jpg
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  #20  
Old 16-09-11, 01:53 PM
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I have taken further images of the hallmark in different lighting, not sure they show anything clearer than my earlier one, perhaps they do? Regards, Clive.
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File Type: jpg p5.JPG (79.7 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg p6.JPG (83.0 KB, 67 views)
File Type: jpg p7.JPG (65.4 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg p8.JPG (92.9 KB, 60 views)
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  #21  
Old 21-11-11, 12:17 AM
FDP FDP is offline
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Default hallmark

Clive

this is an ok photo if you enlarge of the cairo hallmark (l-r) - purity / cairo assay / date - on a genuine popskis private army cap badge. It would have been stamped in at the cairo assay office and as you can see it is quite crisp and the stamp displaced / raised a little silver along the edges.

Looking at the excellent close up pics of yours the hallmark appears cast in as the rest of the badge. only other variation are the loops on this one are flat and it looks either struck badge rather than cast, or maybe a very fine casting by comparison.

It looks like the same hallmark to me, albeit a rougher cast, but i am no expert - what do you think?

The Institute of Hallmark Research are the experts, they visited and collated information with the cairo assay office for Vol2 of their forthcoming book on world hallmarks prior to the arab spring. They (C Assay O) were able to authenticate and date this one, I could forward the thread to IHR if you like?

Also I saw a similar Cairo mark a LRDG about a month ago. It felt wrong, and it was £60 so I left it. Have you or any forum members seen any of these about.

hope this helps, fdp
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  #22  
Old 21-11-11, 09:06 AM
FDP FDP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seebee1 View Post
I have taken further images of the hallmark in different lighting, not sure they show anything clearer than my earlier one, perhaps they do? Regards, Clive.
Clive, new to the forum my first post and pic has not appeared yet, maybe its being moderated, followed it up: this from e mail exchange with Institute of Hallmark Research looking at your ppa pictures. reply in bold. FDP

Please excuse me prevailing on you again out of the blue, you helped me identify / date a british cap badge made in Cairo at the end of last year.

Another one has appeared on a collectors forum, I wondered if you would mind looking at the 3 pics of it attached (I have added a 4th pic of the mark you identified for me) and maybe giving me an opinion?

The hallmark is less distinct and looks cast in to my novice eyes (did they do that? i assumed it would be stamped) but may be the same, first two parts rough though they are look like the purity and cairo mark.
Indeed, these marks may be cast in place. A crude cast will have improper detail fulfillment, like this. The only other possible explanation would be that some pressure or wear at that spot but this explanation seems unlikely without other evidence on the front or to either side of the marks. If it is cast, then all bets are off on assigning a year. The marks look a lot like your other sample though vague and while they were to have all been made at around the same time, as a collector piece, anyone could have cast off an example and put it on the market, even if it were 50 years ago. It really is suspicious and nothing like the sample you originally sent as far as a genuinely struck mark.

Also did vol2 of the reference book come out yet? Unfortunately not. Still working on it.
I am still seeking more examples of Egyptian date marks if you have anymore or if you can send a word out to your blog. Any examples are welcome and attribution for any contributions will be acknowledged in our next volume. By reconstructing the date chart with actual examples of date marks we all can acheive better accuracy in dating their marks without having to learn to write Arabic!
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  #23  
Old 21-11-11, 06:16 PM
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seebee1 seebee1 is offline
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Very interesting indeed. I am uncertain if the markings on my example are cast or stamped. This is a subject of precision and knowledge that I am not qualified to really further comment. If mine is cast, and as such makes it a fake-copy, the detail is quite extraordinary. Regards, Clive.
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  #24  
Old 21-11-11, 08:15 PM
FDP FDP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seebee1 View Post
Very interesting indeed. I am uncertain if the markings on my example are cast or stamped. This is a subject of precision and knowledge that I am not qualified to really further comment. If mine is cast, and as such makes it a fake-copy, the detail is quite extraordinary. Regards, Clive.
Clive, I agree, clearly the thread consensus is that your PPA is a genuine / period piece, any jeweller with an eyeglass will advise you re impressed / cast HM please let us know if you can.
Further, given your accquisition provenance likely an in theatre badge then. i'd strongly suggest you show foPPA website too. Believe only 2 known HM to them.

Just for info: obviously faked silver hallmarks, english, egyptian, whatever are illegal. Fakers of HM silver often omit or partly obliterate elements of the mark thus making them invallid -ie not illegal.

I have placed thumbnails of mine/yours face together below for detail comparison, not best photo but trust this is of use also. regards, fdp
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File Type: jpg ppa 005.jpg (60.5 KB, 143 views)
File Type: jpg ppaclive.jpg (48.7 KB, 148 views)
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  #25  
Old 22-11-11, 10:10 AM
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seebee1 seebee1 is offline
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Perhaps running this past the PPA website may be a good idea. Thinking further about my example being possibly entirely cast, including the hallmarks, it seems probable to me that some badges may have been cast in a Cairo Bazaar using an original high quality Jeweler hand made silver badge, with correct stamped hallmarking. This obviously would provide the necessary pattern, including the hallmarks, but then would be presumably in breach of Egyptian law and regulations. I then ask the question that in wartime and the fact of speed of manufacture and possibly cost as well, that why would an irregular unit care about the legality of a hallmark? Once the badge is worn no one would see or care about the niceties of the hallmark. I do not know if the PPA website have definitive detail and information regarding the supply of silver cap badges, perhaps actual proof of purchase and source? If there are only two known examples of the hallmarked silver badge it is very unlikely that mine was cast from one of them, but it could have been. The casting process does lose some finite detail, but never the less still a handsome badge. Certainly an interesting and thought provoking subject. Regards, Clive.
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  #26  
Old 22-11-11, 08:41 PM
FDP FDP is offline
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Default member examples please

Clive, as you say, definately interesting.
I note your thread has garnered much interest.700+ views. I am surprised however by the low ratio of replies posted, especially as you invited opinions.

I have trawled through all the previous PPA/LRP/LRDG threads I could find - a staggering amount of information and SF expertise, mind the better half still favoured "i'm a celebrity get me out" despite my enthusiasm!

1. You say you have a number of other variations of PPA before finding this one again, could you post pictures of them too?

It is not just the h/m vs no h/m, struck / cast. Popski obviously had a number of batches made over the 3 years. The loops on these 3 below are all different too - SAUMUA trust you dont mind me transferring your pic.

2. Could other members post pics of theirs?

Re casting: I found this on one forum post from DIEHARD and worth repeating here:
"I took my book plate to a Jewish silversmith off the Shareh El Manakh and got him to cut in brass a reduced and simplified design..........the first badges were cut and engraved by hand; they turned out rather too exquisite for the roughness of our manners; later we had a die cut and made the badges of silver, which takes the stamp better than brass." quote Vladimir Peniakoff (Popski)

Clive Just IMO, i'd go along with your supposition so far as its a relatively poor casting despite the wear, the modern lost wax cast fakes (of other badges) I have held are very crisp.

As you will know 'Popski' was 'christened' during his time with LRDG.
3. Do any members know if it is more than conjecture that Issac Faber who made the LRP their badges then fell foul (and having the die broken) of the LRP would have have been the same lad 'off the Shareh El Manakh'?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PPAsaumau.JPG (75.4 KB, 136 views)
File Type: jpg PPASaumau2.jpg (35.8 KB, 86 views)
File Type: jpg ppacliveback.JPG (52.0 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg ppacliveback2.jpg (44.1 KB, 85 views)
File Type: jpg pop 001.jpg (33.7 KB, 85 views)
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  #27  
Old 23-11-11, 03:31 PM
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seebee1 seebee1 is offline
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Following the suggestion made I have run the badge past the Friends of Popski's Army. The following is the reply I received:

TEXT REMOVED - Reason is that permission to repeat it was not given and felt to be discourteous and I agree - Sorry about that, Clive.

So there you have it, pretty much conclusive or is it? In some ways the fact that my badge has the hallmarks is possibly its redeeming feature and it's saving grace. There can be no question that if my badge is totally cast, including the hallmark, then this had to have had an original badge, with stamped hallmarks, as the pattern to make it. Either that or the hallmarks on mine are poorly applied, but from the comments of the high quality of Cairo silversmiths this seems improbable, but who knows for certain. It is unlikely that anyone is still alive who would be able to state exactly what took place over 65 years ago. Who could ever state conclusively that mine was not made during wartime, or for that matter any timescale? Another factor is that if my badge was manufactured to deceive then who was this aimed at? Surely not the elderly lady I bought it from 30+ years ago, at a small country Antiques Fair, and who told me it had belonged to and been worn by a relative of hers. I think I paid the princely sum of £10 for it! Add to this that if this was a deception then presumably there would be more than one and if so where are they? For me the Jury is still out! Regards, Clive.

PS: More later on the badge that is thought to be original, once I am totally clear which one this is.

Last edited by seebee1; 25-11-11 at 10:13 AM.
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  #28  
Old 24-11-11, 09:06 PM
FDP FDP is offline
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£10!! even then that was a steal, well done
seen this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POPSKIS-pr...item2c60ca8f7d
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  #29  
Old 24-11-11, 10:13 PM
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seebee1 seebee1 is offline
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Interesting eBay sale, also to see that this Forum and my Badge have been mentioned in the listing. It may seem a strange comment to make, however whilst the hallmarks look very good, it is possible that the front of the badge may not have some of the characteristics that could be expected. I am just putting together some more information regarding the PPA Badge. It may be that I may not able to get permission to post some images due to copyright, just waiting for a response. Regards, Clive.
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  #30  
Old 25-11-11, 04:16 AM
popski popski is offline
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Hi,

I was unexpectedly quoted above, and since I wouldn't like my unguarded and unconsidered comments to be relied upon by members of the forum, I should clarify my comments here regarding PPA badges. Before I say anything, I'll state that these opinions are just that, opinions; they may be endorsed or refuted as members see fit, and they're not to be considered the authoritative word of FoPPA, my tireless pal Roy's excellent organisation (http://www.popski.org/memorialfund).

As far as I'm concerned, 'good' later war white metal badges (ie not the tiny amount made in brass in Cairo for the embryo unit) have a number of distinct features which re-strikes and post-war commemorative badges seem to lack. They are, a properly rendered figure of cancer, a dot in the 'arrow point' at four o'clock, and a portion of the astrolabe's architecture which gets omitted in re-strikes. To me, the presence of these features is a good rule of thumb, indicating a likely 'good' badge.

I said to Clive that I thought the 'Egyptian' badge was dubious, and I have to stand by that.

cheers,

Popski
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