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  #16  
Old 09-02-22, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volunteer Soldier View Post
Each to his own. But I am surprised the original post did not elicit more comments. OSD Bronze, 1VB varieties et al.
I think many, myself included, do not like links to live eBay auctions being posted. Exception being if the item is obviously fake and therefore a warning to members or as with the 3 Commando 2 Troop patch has already gone potty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil s View Post
Hi Luke I am unable to access that album
It is a private album I’ve just noticed.
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  #17  
Old 16-02-22, 08:31 PM
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Default Silver 1st Vol. Battn Leicesters badge

It’s hard to believe it is five years now since I last made a posting to the Forum, but, apparently, that is the case. Personal circumstances, and a severe lack of funds, have prevented me from pursuing my research and collecting as I’d have liked over those years, though my interest in the Leicester’s tiger cap badges remains. I too spotted the badge in question on ebay, though, unlike Simon (manchesters) with his keen observation, failed to notice the silver loops! I am familiar with this kind of badge, as well as the Gaunt plate on it, and have seen a number of examples of it, in white metal, amongst the badges of other collectors; mind, I am still looking to acquire a nice example of such for myself!

I would in no way call myself an expert, but since buying my first Leicesters badge in 2009 I have endeavoured to make a study of these tiger badges, with a view to specifically identifying the different makers’ variants; even when unmarked. It is with confidence, therefore, that I feel I can offer some opinions on matters, albeit, I stress, if such are just my own views. Accordingly, I would agree with the comment about the badge in question coming from “a good collection looking at the others” being offered by the same seller, but would say that it was far from being “dodgy”. Indeed, as far as I saw there was only one tiger cap badge being sold that I would consider unauthentic (not collecting shoulder titles, buttons or collar badges, and with helmet plates being well out of my league, I couldn’t comment on any items other that the tiger cap badges).

Having said that, there is definitely something out of the ordinary about the badge, but that isn’t necessarily a badge thing; in my opinion! One thing of which I can be certain is that the tiger here is the J. R. Gaunt & Son makers’ variant, of that I have no doubt. It was interesting, therefore, to see the way some of the experienced and well respected members of the Forum felt it was not genuine. On the Gaunt Birmingham mark, my understanding is that a “J.R.Gaunt B’ham” mark was used on the sliders of ORs’ bi-metal restrikes made by the firm during the 1970s (like the mark used on their A/A beret badges). I was under the impression that these were made for the ‘collectors’ market’, in a similar way that the Birmingham Mint commemorative badges were produced as collectables, and which were also made by Gaunt after they became part of the same group in 1973.

Furthermore, it is my understanding that badges not supplied directly via the War Office, such a private purchase officers’ badges, could bear a maker’s mark, and, accordingly, that badges for volunteer battalions could also fall within this. As far as the Leicestershire 1st Volunteer Battalion is concerned, I believe, from the evidence of the badges I have seen, that they were supplied by two manufactures, namely J. R. Gaunt and Bent & Parker; the latter not, in fact, marking their badges. I am quite happy that Gaunt did mark the badges they supplied for the Leicesters’ volunteers, and, as it happens, the battalions of the Regiments’ territorial force; at least up until the supply of badges for these was taken up by the War Office in 1915/16.

Regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”
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  #18  
Old 16-02-22, 08:45 PM
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Ticker!!!! Welcome back, you have been sorely missed.
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  #19  
Old 16-02-22, 08:53 PM
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Welcome back Ticker.

Regards.

Brian
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  #20  
Old 17-02-22, 09:59 AM
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Martin, Sir,
I respect your opinion. But I remain wholly unconvinced that the 1VB Leicester badges, complete with JR Gaunt B'ham plaques are genuine, of the period badges. I have been collecting for over 50 years and have a sizeable "Volunteer" collection. Of course there are many, many gaps in my limited knowledge and I would certainly claim no expert knowledge. Please feel entirely free to disregard my views. But in all my years of collecting I have never seen a genuine, in my view, VB badge with a Gaunt plaque. At day's end our fascinating hobby boils down, thankfully, to an individual's choice - and no, I do not have a 1VB Leicester cap badge in my collection. Sir, please do not take umbrage - I am simply offering my humble opinion.
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  #21  
Old 17-02-22, 08:29 PM
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Default J. R. Gaunt 1st Vol. Battn Leicesters badges

Many thanks for the words of welcome on my return Luke and Brian, though we’ll have to see how long I can stay! Thank you also ‘Volunteer Soldier’ for your posting, and certainly no umbrage taken at all. At the end of the day, as you have said, “each to his own”, and I’d agree that so much about this wonderful hobby of ours is subjective. Anyone, and everyone, is free to ignore my postings and their content should they wish. But even though it seems I’m a bit of a young whippersnapper, when compared with your fifty years of collecting, only having been collecting Leicesters cap badges for the past thirteen years, I am confident in my opinions.

The key thing for me is that the badge in question is the J. R. Gaunt & Son maker’s type, so the fact it has a mark on it to that effect is perfectly in keeping as far as I can see. We are definitely not talking about one of the ‘owl-eyed’ Gladman & Norman reproduction badges with a fake Gaunt mark, so I am personally happy that Neil’s badge is genuine, even if it is silver rather than white metal (I don’t have a definitive answer for why it is silver/slivered, though could offer some suggestions). I also have no problem with the idea that the Leicesters Volunteer Association purchased badges directly from Gaunts, and that they, accordingly, marked these badges with several ‘Birmingham’ marks on different kinds of badges at different times (i.e. ORs, officers and later T.F. badges). Incidentally, I’m sorry but I can’t answer your question ‘Parabellum’, as to why the officer’s badges have “BIRM” and not “B'HAM”, as I only collect Leicesters badges so am relying on others to say if such appears on different Gaunt badges.

Anyhow, it’s clearly your choice entirely if you do not want any Gaunt marked Leicesters volunteer badges in your own collection ‘Volunteer Soldier’, but if you, or anyone else for that matter, do see any I’d be more than grateful for a heads-up, as I am quite happy they are authentic period badges and would be glad to have them to help with my research. I do have two “1st V.B. Leicestershire” badges in my Forum album, with the “South Africa 1900.02” honour, which you’re welcome to look at if you want (I think you have to send me a friends request before you can see them?). One is from the Walter Lambert Collection and the other from that of Margaret E. Nobbs, both of whom, I believe, were respected collectors. Whilst this doesn’t automatically mean they are genuine, of course, I would like to think it does give them good pedigrees, as it were. It is also the case that badges like mine, and indeed like the one of Neil’s that we are discussing, albeit in white metal, have been sold by Bosleys in the past. Obviously no-one is infallible, and, I suppose, what we really need is an example with irrefutable provenance of being a Leicesters volunteer badge – if anyone out there happens to have one?

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 18-02-22 at 08:01 PM. Reason: typo
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  #22  
Old 17-02-22, 09:44 PM
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Default Leicesters, BHam- Birm

Reverse of 4 of the badges the seller offered Including the gaunt plate example
This may help with any further discussion
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  #23  
Old 18-02-22, 04:29 PM
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The only badge that I am familiar with and comfortable with is the second bronze OSD one. That very strange crude cast one with the raised instead of stamped Gaunt mark I have never seen before. I have a hard time believing that to be genuine.

CB
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  #24  
Old 18-02-22, 06:31 PM
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The four in #23 are all stamped I believe
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  #25  
Old 18-02-22, 06:50 PM
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I agree, sometimes photos give the impression it’s raised but in reality it’s stamped.
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  #26  
Old 18-02-22, 08:01 PM
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Default J. R. Gaunt marks on Leicesters badges

Thank you for putting up the pictures of the different Gaunt marks Paul, I think it’s good practice to always try and save images of badges for future reference. Incidentally I’ve been looking at your interesting postings about certain firms and the war work they did during the Great War, compared with their pre-war work, which you seem to have found in the published Parliamentary papers. I must send you a PM about this, to find out your exact source?

Yes Neil and Keith are quite right, and all the Gaunt maker’s marks shown are stamped. Apparently a ‘naming force’ was used for stamping directly into the back of a badge, as opposed to the name being stamped into an additional plate, plaque or tablet; the ‘force’ is what I think some might call the ‘punch’ or ‘male’ die. The “J.R.Gaunt London” mark on the semi-sold die struck O.S.D. badge (it seems the usual term of ‘die cast’ for these badges is incorrect), rather than for Birmingham, is, I believe, because of the company’s outlet in London.

Regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”
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  #27  
Old 18-02-22, 08:12 PM
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I would like to get some opinions on the helmet plate below, which sold on eBay this week.
It raises some questions for me, the unusual construction and it being marked on the back with this same mark, but I also wondered if anyone knows why the battalion changed their Victorian pattern centre of the three tigers to the regular battalion pattern with a change to the Hindoostan scroll and is this documented ?

Unfortunately there was no photo of the rear of the helmet plate centre in the listing and wondered if anyone had one and is that marked too ?

Neil
Attached Images
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  #28  
Old 18-02-22, 08:32 PM
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The number 4 photo (last on right) Leicester badge does not have the stamped Gaunt name. If one blows up the photo and examines it closely, this will become apparent. It also appears to be filled in the back, leaving empty cavities, which I have never seen. Is there a photo of the obverse of that badge?

CB
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  #29  
Old 18-02-22, 08:52 PM
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Default Leicesters Volunteers adoption of regulars badge

Thank you for sharing this Neil, most interesting. I have it that volunteer battalions were allowed to adopt the cap badge of parent regiments in white metal but without honours (War Office Directive dated 22 May 1901, WO 359/10, p. 306), see Julian’s posting here about this, so, presumably, that applied to helmet plate centres as well?

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 18-02-22 at 08:59 PM. Reason: underlining
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  #30  
Old 18-02-22, 09:34 PM
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Thanks for the info Martin, appreciate it.

Neil.
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