Odd Factory Mark On Anodised Aluminium Badge

[hagwalther]

Hi Mike,

OK, I'll go back and re-visit mine but I'm sure a few were at least chromed.

Pee'd me off a bit as I've been replacing a few with earlier examples.

Mike, do you know how these badges are identified as copies?

Are the backs embossed as such?

Do we have photographic example?

Who made them?

I do seem to be asking a lot of questions of a lot of people these days but they are important and and leading to a big puzzle starting to fall into place.

Regards

Chris

Unfortunately the Smith & Wright archive is not available online, to my knowledge. I was fortunate enough to have sight of the papers when they spent some time at the Imperial War Museum where they were being selectively copied. I believe the records (copied - not original) ultimately went to the National Army Museum archive. The originals went back to Hugh King. Regards. David

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Mike,

OK, I'll go back and re-visit mine but I'm sure a few were at least chromed.

Pee'd me off a bit as I've been replacing a few with earlier examples.

Mike, do you know how these badges are identified as copies?

Are the backs embossed as such?

Do we have photographic example?

Who made them?

I do seem to be asking a lot of questions of a lot of people these days but they are important and and leading to a big puzzle starting to fall into place.

Regards

Chris

The badges have "copy" stamped on the back.

[hagwalther]

Moving on.

Does anyone have an early version of this badge by Smith & Wright.

I would like to see obverse and reverse views if possible.

Many Thanks.

Chris

[bess55]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Moving on.

Does anyone have an early version of this badge by Smith & Wright.

I would like to see obverse and reverse views if possible.

Many Thanks.

Chris

Chris,
I have a couple of early ones with the usual s & w soft, thin rounded slider but I seem to have a nightmare trying to post images. Will try.

Bess

[hagwalther]

Thanks Bess,

Sounds like this 'R' item then has come from totally different dies.

I have a few early Smith & Wright so know exactly what you mean.

Regards

Chris

[Harry Man of Kent]

Not sure if this helps too much, but I live in East Kent where the buffs are the local regiment and thus my father collected extensively to this regt (as well as lots of other ares!!). I was collecting A/A. The Buffs was one of the harder AA badges to get and my smith & wright one took ages to find and has only half a slider - certainly no R on the back. I will check the ones in my fathers collection, which is now mine, when I get a chance. Anyway, at some point in the 80's a batch of about 50 mint Buff badges came out of the regimental stores - a dealer I know got them and was selling them for about £25 each, which drastically reduced the rarity of this badge. But I never looked on the back of them!! The dealer has always been very straight and never passed off repoductions without stating what they were. I also think if there were any repro's made for an anniversary/event etc we would have heard about it, as we knew the local scene very well. As I said not sure it helps too much.

[Alan O]

This is the back of my HW Timings one. It is die struck.

[rexb]

A few years ago, I visited the Firmin factory, with the Birmingham branch of The British Button Society. Their die-cutter mentioned making replicas and restrikes, and showed me a restruck 19th century shoulder belt plate, that was on his bench. I asked if it was identified as a restrike in any way. He turned it over, and pointed to a letter 'R' on the back; it was about an inch high, perhaps a little less.

At the time of our visit, we knew Firmins had stopped making buttons backmarked with the names of some of the firms with whom they had amalgamated, and I asked another member of their staff when this was. He replied that it was "about 1993". Smith & Wright was one of the names he mentioned as having been used as a backmark up until that time, another was Dowler. Since then, I have obtained a Sealed Pattern Sovereign Base Area Cyprus Personnel button, Date of Sealing 12/9/94, backmarked "DOWLER BIRMINGHAM", so the off the cuff "about 1993" may have been a little early.

Rex

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Harry Man of Kent

Not sure if this helps too much, but I live in East Kent where the buffs are the local regiment and thus my father collected extensively to this regt (as well as lots of other ares!!). I was collecting A/A. The Buffs was one of the harder AA badges to get and my smith & wright one took ages to find and has only half a slider - certainly no R on the back. I will check the ones in my fathers collection, which is now mine, when I get a chance. Anyway, at some point in the 80's a batch of about 50 mint Buff badges came out of the regimental stores - a dealer I know got them and was selling them for about £25 each, which drastically reduced the rarity of this badge. But I never looked on the back of them!! The dealer has always been very straight and never passed off repoductions without stating what they were. I also think if there were any repro's made for an anniversary/event etc we would have heard about it, as we knew the local scene very well. As I said not sure it helps too much.

Hi Harry,

few points from our PM messages which are probably relevant here for others.

The 'R' Buffs is the only mark known and is on a later Smith & Wright slider. Taking on board what you have said:

The slider the badge is on is a more modern S&W item which is more akin to the William Dowler & Son (who took over S&W in 1961 later to be taken over by Firmin). Now, the Buffs were amalgamated in 1961 so I do find it hard to believe that it was an official issue item based on the regiments dates and type of slider. Of course, I may well be wrong.

Can you remember exactly what year you received the badge - I have it in the book as 1980's.

Note that during the 1980's quite a few very high profile dealers (one who was also a very prominent author on the subject of badge collecting) have been traced back to getting 'unofficial commissions' made by certain badge makers - Gaunt was the prime maker of these repros but there may well have been others.

This is not to take anything away from your dealer friend but I'm not sure that the military ever sold off stock directly to the public. If he got the stock from the maker then yes, that would seem more appropriate as the makers often kept a stock of badge of all units they catered for as an emergency reserve for good will purposes. When the unit no longer existed then the stock would obliviously be surplus to requirements.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by rexb

A few years ago, I visited the Firmin factory, with the Birmingham branch of The British Button Society. Their die-cutter mentioned making replicas and restrikes, and showed me a restruck 19th century shoulder belt plate, that was on his bench. I asked if it was identified as a restrike in any way. He turned it over, and pointed to a letter 'R' on the back; it was about an inch high, perhaps a little less.

At the time of our visit, we knew Firmins had stopped making buttons backmarked with the names of some of the firms with whom they had amalgamated, and I asked another member of their staff when this was. He replied that it was "about 1993". Smith & Wright was one of the names he mentioned as having been used as a backmark up until that time, another was Dowler. Since then, I have obtained a Sealed Pattern Sovereign Base Area Cyprus Personnel button, Date of Sealing 12/9/94, backmarked "DOWLER BIRMINGHAM", so the off the cuff "about 1993" may have been a little early.

Rex

Thanks Rex,

That is very interesting info and Smith & Wright, Dowler and Firmin relationship reconciles with what I know too.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Alan O

This is the back of my HW Timings one. It is die struck.

Hi Alan,

Typical early Timings piece - very nice indeed.

Regards

Chris

[chris cunniffe]

I have the same markings on the one i have chris