Royal Warwicks HG Swallow Cars & Morris Motors

[wright241]

Someone on the Forum mentioned that these badges have been copied to death.
Both of these were bought by me in good faith that they were genuine. i.e. the price. I also believe they are. However, I am prepared (sort of) to be shot down in flames over this.
a) They are both maker marked and this (to me) appears to be a genuine mark.
b) The fixings, scroll, hart etc all seem to me to be ok.

[cbuehler]

Well, not knowing these badges, they look ok to me. I think the MM one looks best to my eye. Has the best looking slider and patina, but if this is indeed a good badge, I would presume the Swallow one is as well. I suppose a skilled faker could add these letters to a standard Warwicks badge?

CB

[wright241]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

Well, not knowing these badges, they look ok to me. I think the MM one looks best to my eye. Has the best looking slider and patina, but if this is indeed a good badge, I would presume the Swallow one is as well. I suppose a skilled faker could add these letters to a standard Warwicks badge?

CB

cbuehler, Those were my thoughts when I first saw them , even the Hart/Antelope(?) look good for a R.Warwicks badge. The fixing of the letters at back of the badge are very nicely brazed onto the edge of the badge scroll and not "tagged" in the way they are on a lot of fakes/restrikes.
Everything about the badges except for the missing letter - now theres a thought...... must find my set of punches..
thanks for your opinion

[RAChD]

Hi there;
For all the reasons stated above I like these. They have everything that several of the later restrike HG badges lack with patina and attention to detail that originals should have. I don't have examples of these in my own collection, as mine is heavily paperwork based, but I like these. I have a nice original example of the Vickers Armstrong badge and I'd have happily spent money on these too if I'd seen them!
Nice badges

[wright241]

Originally Posted by RAChD

Hi there;
For all the reasons stated above I like these. They have everything that several of the later restrike HG badges lack with patina and attention to detail that originals should have. I don't have examples of these in my own collection, as mine is heavily paperwork based, but I like these. I have a nice original example of the Vickers Armstrong badge and I'd have happily spent money on these too if I'd seen them!
Nice badges

Thanks for your comments. I thought (and still think) that they are ok as well. Unfortunately, there seems to be a big problem (from other forum members) about this particular makers mark being a fake. I know from the original source of the badge that a box of these were found (from the war days) in their old offices/workshop/premises etc. I also used to own a Vickers HG badge (I sold it back in 92/93 via a W&W auction) as well - wish I hadn't, but there you go - maybe you got mine?
So, at the moment they in the "suspects box" until the guy that it originally came from can provide me with providence, OR, the makers mark is accepted as being genuine - a more detailed scan of the mark is in the Forums "Makers marks" listing. I haven't seen a Vickers HG badge for yonks - if you see one, pls let me know - mine was a cast, flat back, 2 lugged version.
Good hunting. david

[RAChD]

David;

Mine came from Bosleys if I remember correctly, I don't think it was WandW. Its the same as you describe though and I am very happy with it. Exactly as per the 1 pictured in In the Space of a Single Day.

Some of the Home Guard units associated with Vickers are as follows:-

KT18 - 163 LAA [Light Anti Aircraft battery] Troop A protecting VA [Vickers Armstrong] Dartford.

COL24 - 164 Light AA Battery Troop A VA Crayford

DOR5 - 387 LAA Troop B Wyke Regis

EL1 - 437 LAA Troop A Barrow in Furness

EL7 - 438 LAA Troop A Blackpool

FT5 456 LAA Troop A Hawarden

WAR 52 - 471 LAA A + B Troops Castle Bromwich - this will interest you the most David, since they were also in Warwickshire.

H11 - 604 LAA Troop Vickers/Saunders Roe Factory Eastleigh

[There is a small number [less than 20 were made] of brass VA badge reproductions but they have rounded edges and what looks like a slightly oversize pair of lugs. They were made for a re-enacting group and no more are likely to be produced.]

[wright241]

Originally Posted by RAChD

Mine came from Bosleys if I remember correctly, I don't think it was WandW. Its the same as you describe though and I am very happy with it. Exactly as per the 1 pictured in In the Space of a Single Day.

[There is a small number [less than 20 were made] of brass reproductions but they have rounded edges and what looks like a slightly oversize pair of lugs. They were made for a re-enacting group and no more are likely to be produced.]

RAChD,
I was also aware of the repro's, but I never thought that these were
anything like the ones I have. However, regardless of how I (or you) feel
about them, it remains an open point on the forum that the font size
of the makers mark on these 2 badges are definitely wrong for this badge,
so therefore they must be fakes. I would need a confirmed (?) badge
of impeccable pedrigree witht the same mark and font before they are
accepted as being genuine. So far, no others with this type of mark has turned turned up - which is also odd in itself - if these are copies.....

[RAChD]

Very true, if theere was someone who knocked out a few of these as fakes I'm suprised I haven't seen one myself. As I said I am interested in all aspects of the Home Guard and am in 2 re-enacting groups. I know many HG re-enactor / collectors and we're all a pretty keen bunch. I'd expect that if one of them had turned one up it would be high on the adgenda for talking about at shows and events I've never heard mention of one at all.
Looks like another "wait and see" project.
I've got an idea of someone to ask who's collected £1000s and £1000s of Home Guard stuff about this subject next time I give him a ring!
ttfn
Matt

[Alan O]

For what it is worth I have not seen the 'SS' badge elsewhere but I have seen 5 or 6 of the 'MM' ones on ebay in the last 2-3 years. I have also seen that mark (and it is different to the mark used on the company on their 1950-60 a/a badges), used on fakes sold at Charing cross market before.

Alan

[Mike]

just had this one pointed out to us - may be of interest.

RARE W.W. II ROYAL WARWICKSHIRE CAP BADGE

[wright241]

Originally Posted by Mike

just had this one pointed out to us - may be of interest.

RARE W.W. II ROYAL WARWICKSHIRE CAP BADGE

Mike,
Thanks. The only 'obvious' difference apart from the patina etc
is the very heavy apostrophe in B'HAM - which is not accounted for
by the rest of the strike.
Will have a more detailed look at mine and this one. I might even put a
low bid on it and look at them side my side.
david

[ncc]

you seem to be missing the point .they are usually perfectly genuine warwickshire badges (with the number about and the small amount they cost, it would silly to use repro badges)
the letters are from small s/ts usually RASC and silver soldered on, you can see where the fixing has been on the s/t.
if you come up with the argument that they were done like that in ww2 they weren't.they would have been brazed.
in fact i have not seen any evidence that they ( ss mm )ever existed.
if anyone has any pics please post them.
i could make you one with a 'C' a rare cannings ltd. hg or with 'B' ultra rare bournville hg.in a couple of minutes.
this could turn into quite a profitable business!

[Alan O]

I fully agree with all of the above except the bit about faking Rwarks badges as they have been faked and I regard these MFG Grove ones as examples of this.

[wright241]

Originally Posted by ncc

you seem to be missing the point .they are usually perfectly genuine warwickshire badges (with the number about and the small amount they cost, it would silly to use repro badges)
the letters are from small s/ts usually RASC and silver soldered on, you can see where the fixing has been on the s/t.
if you come up with the argument that they were done like that in ww2 they weren't.they would have been brazed.
in fact i have not seen any evidence that they ( ss mm )ever existed.
if anyone has any pics please post them.
i could make you one with a 'C' a rare cannings ltd. hg or with 'B' ultra rare bournville hg.in a couple of minutes.
this could turn into quite a profitable business!

That clearly puts them both into the fakes bin then.
Many thanks for the info. I will be contacting the person I got them off
for a refund.