4th VB Essex Regiment - Strange Fittings?

[Keith Blakeman]

I was really pleased to pick up another of these badges today but when I collected it I was very suprised at an unusual fixing at the bottom. Unlike my other badge (in my VB album which has conventionally placed loops) this one has them high up but what I though was a third one removed and filed down flush (I was sent a photo) has turned out to be a smooth threadless rod about 5mm in length. What purpose does it serve and has anyone come across something similar. It's not a replacement, going by the discolouration of the braze around all three fittings.

[Alan O]

I would suspect that this might be for a side hat where the badge sits very low down on the hat band. Any lugs set lower would be uncomforatable on the side of the forehead?

[Peter Brydon]

With regard to the bottom fitting the simple answer is I dont know but the modern Liverpool Scottish badge re introduced when the badge was taken back into use in 1992 was manufactured with a 3rd lug at the bottom of the badge so that the blue hackle could be securely attached behind the badge.

Other than a means of keeping the badge in position on the headdress I cannot think of any other reason for the rod.

It will be interesting to see if anyone comes up with a reason for it.
P.B.

[41st]

I can't say for sure as to the purpose, but if you look at the link below to the back of an Officer's silver and gilt 1898 patern Welsh Regiment cap badge, there was obviously a purpose for the lower fittings. I also have a similar one for the RWF.

I have seen a similar fitting on a hall marked lancer badge to 1917. My guess is that whatever thier purpose it was for use on headwear that did not come back into use after the great war.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...2&d=1204046366

[2747andy]

Could they possibly be pouch ornaments rather than cap badges? If fitted to a small leather crossbelt pouch, lugs at the bottom of the badge would be where the leather thong is sewn and hence passing a pin through would be difficult?

Andy

[matti467]

A lateral thought Keith but could it be to do with badge backings and keeping them in place?
Matti

[4966Ian]

Hi folks,

I also have a couple of badges with the stud/post fixing as mentioned above. They are both on a couple 1st VB Royal Berkshire badges in Brass (GM) and Bronze. As you can see from the pictures the badge (the brass/GM is shown, but the bronze version is the same) has two close together (East/West) lugs and a stud/post at the bottom of the badge. I bought one as a 'pouch badge' and the other as a 'cap badge'. The descriptions varying as to which dealer/auction house I bought it from.

The posts on both of my badges stick up for about 5mm. They also look as if they have had something cut from the end of them. Though that could just be the way the badges were made originally and me reading too much into it.
Without seeing other badges and realsiing that this was a common-ish fixing, I did wonder if someone many years ago, had just taken a pair of bolt cutters to the fixing post to facilitate easy removal of the badge from cap/pouch. There is no trace of a screw thread left on the posts/studs.

Cheers

Ian

[4966Ian]

....and here are the pictures of the Bronze version.

Ian

[Sonofacqms]

This idea of a small post seems to be peculiar to Volunteer badges. The Buckinghamshire R.V. had a similar arrangement on their badge, no doubt someone will be able to tell us.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by matti467

A lateral thought Keith but could it be to do with badge backings and keeping them in place?
Matti

It's certainly a possibility. Peter has mentioned a hackle and as East Surrey collectors we are both aware of felt backings to our glengarries, etc but surely the loops alone would have been adequate enough keep them in place? I'm really pleased to see Ian's Berkshire VB badges as are they not only contemporary with the Essex one and are more than likely from the same maker unless they are adaptions. There's no split between the stub which I'd have thought would be visible if it was a cut off loop although one of Ian's has a definate sheared off look? The loops and tab fixing (41st's Welsh Regt) is fairly common on turn of the century officers badges which has Alan has said the presence of a bottom loop would make the headress (FSC - Side Cap) uncomfortable, whereas a small slot would hold the badge in place with the tab inserted into it.

Pouch badges are a possibilty as mentioned and I certainly wouldn't be suprised (and pleased ) but it's a really ugly method of fixing.

Thanks for the replies so far to everyone.

[dragonz18]

Keith,
very odd arrangement.
Talking about it to a mate of mine(ex UK) said he had one like that on a 1st Vol DLI badge many years ago. Had thought it was some type of musicians pouch fitting, but I think a brass or bronze Berks does not suit that type of thing ?? More likely to have been in WM there?
How about ,turn of the century style Bush Hats worn by some Vols,to fold the side of the brim under & secure ?? Just a thought .
Cheers !
Steve

PS: in NZ we used hooks under/below the badge to catch a chord loop or metal catch for this purpose.

[Alan O]

The slouch hat was in vogue post Boer war by the Vol Bns so that would make sense.

[dragonz18]

It would explain why the loops were placed so high up,out of the way of the edge of the brim ??
Cheers again !
Steve

[matti467]

I like the slouch hat idea. I have mentioned before on here that there was a batch of Royal Signals Jimmys in the mid '80s where the bottom lug on Jimmy was replaced with a minature stub/pillar. I presume the idea being that the stub/pillar would press into the material and keep it in place. Instead they broke at the legs and we all bought a spare which was properly made.
Matti

[Deejayuu]

Another example. 1st vb DLI. Is there any significance that all the badges are volunteers? Did the volunteers wear anything materially different from other units?

Dave