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#16
21-10-13, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
You wont find a link...... this is the first "Silver Duty" Chad that I have seen outside of L&Ds book.
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Cofion gorau Gruffydd M-J www.paoyeomanry.org.uk "A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry" Lechyd da pob Cymro 
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#17
21-10-13, 09:08 AM
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Stephen
Griff is quite right here, its unlikely you will find an image of your Arm Motto on line, it is a scarce item regardless of whether its original British made or 'in theatre'. However, L&D do indicate that your Arm Motto is near identical to those of HM Silver made by to the sealed pattern 1863, those made by Philip Firmin are the closest match IMO. The difficulty is, if you find an image its unlikely that you will find an image of the reverse, and even if you did it would have a backing plate on it. In order to illustrate this I've posted front & back of a Victorian/Edwardian Arm Motto of the aforementioned pattern, but it is white metal not silver, as the fixing loops are copper. A point I would mention is these Arm Mottoes although well made and robust were surprisingly very lightweight, and this is apparently indicative of them being die-struck, there is no surplus, no thickening, as they have the added support of a backing plate. This point does raise another, be it tenuous possibility, was your Motto reinforced, with silver because it became weak/vulnerable whilst in wear, due to the lack of a backing plate? If this were the case I would suggest this was still done on foreign service, and the proof of this might be the difference in quality of the silver front and rear of the 'Motto'. A good Silver Jeweller could possibly help with that, I certainly can't tell from images. I really don't think I can add any more or I might end up going into the realms of fantasy  I hope the above helps, I sense your disappointment, but I've given my honest opinion based on what I can see and I'm sorry if it does not match your expectations. Good luck  Rob Last edited by Robthereiver; 21-10-13 at 01:23 PM.
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#18
21-10-13, 09:36 AM
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Rob
Is there a name scratched into the back plate, on the scroll area "Go____"? Stephen Can you take a "Macro" picture of the duty mark please.... so we can see some detail?
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Cofion gorau Gruffydd M-J www.paoyeomanry.org.uk "A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry" Lechyd da pob Cymro
Last edited by GriffMJ; 21-10-13 at 01:10 PM.
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#19
21-10-13, 01:30 PM
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Griff
Yes its attributed to Gollin or Goffin, there are numerals also, I have done some initial research but unable to locate a 17th Lancer of that name to date, still working on it. Request for 'Macro' image good idea, might shed more light. Rob
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#20
21-10-13, 01:45 PM
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Dave thanks for the offer I will keep you in mind
Rob quote A point I would mention is these Arm Mottoes although well made and robust were surprisingly very lightweight, and this is apparently indicative of them being die-struck, there is no surplus, no thickening, as they have the added support of a backing plate. This point does raise another, be it tenuous possibility, was your Motto reinforced, with silver because it became weak/vulnerable whilst in wear, due to the lack of a backing plate? end quote My experience of collecting would certainly not rule out the last comment but re the back plate these have generally been retro fit due to weakness/design fault etc it is also possible that the silver is thicker as a trial to fix the problem pre plate etc or indeed it is the earlier Patten and they have tried to cut down on Silver used in later badges and had to a fix a back plate to support the weaker design. any how enough said other than I have had many offers at arms fairs for this motto from dealers all have had glowing Green Eye's. I have other 17th items to post so watch this space including a few more Motto's Stephen Last edited by yorkstone; 21-10-13 at 01:46 PM. Reason: spelling
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#21
21-10-13, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Cofion gorau Gruffydd M-J www.paoyeomanry.org.uk "A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry" Lechyd da pob Cymro
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#22
21-10-13, 03:06 PM
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[QUOTE=yorkstone]
re the back plate these have generally been retro fit due to weakness/design fault etc it is also possible that the silver is thicker as a trial to fix the problem pre plate etc or indeed it is the earlier Patten and they have tried to cut down on Silver used in later badges and had to a fix a back plate to support the weaker design. Stephen I find it a little difficult to understand the logic of your comments, as I think British badge makers were quite competent enough to design a badge, with out too much trial and error. Also, is well known and documented that backing plates were fitted as a matter of course in the production of Victorian/Edwardian NCO's Arm Badges both Silver & wm. of many Regiments e.g. 17L,10H,6D,2D etc. it was not a remedial process, hollow construction is one of the distinctions of the quality of workmanship of the period. In fact a great many Silver Arm Badges were Hallmarked only on their backing plates. That is why L&D stated re the Duty Marked Arm Motto, I quote: 'The Silver motto is unusual, its back plate and loops have been removed and it has the Lion passant and the Queen's Head Duty Mark' That said, you are naturally entitled to your opinions and suppositions Look forward to your future posts. Rob Last edited by Robthereiver; 23-10-13 at 06:46 PM.
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#23
06-11-13, 10:45 PM
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Met up with davec2 and got my hands on his copy of Lineker & Dine book on Cavalry Arm Badges.
My badge seen here over laying image in the book we are both convinced mine is a original Silver Duty Marked Arm Motto. Nice book I must add. Sincerely Stephen Collecting to Stone Staffordshire and surrounding Towns and Villages. In particular the whereabouts of my Great Uncles medals 14 Star Trio 1st Battalion North Staffordshire Regiment to 9605 Pte H Taylor known to be serving with A Coy 1915 also his brother location of his British War and Victory to 12125 Pte W.J Taylor serving with 5th Batt R.F. 1915. I have his 14/15 Star.
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#24
07-11-13, 10:57 AM
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Hello Stephen,
it was great to see you last night, very interesting seeing the ' motto's ' and I was able to form a couple of opinions about them, particularly the larger cast model, very nice. The one you have photographed would interest me too, a nice badge to say the least, it would slot into my arm badge collection like it grew there. Thanks for bringing along some of your Cavalry collection, a real pleasure to go through the cases and of course, some made my eyes water, lol and didn't the time fly ? Your IY rosette ( quickly becoming one of my all time favourite badges ), is the same as the one I had hold of a few weeks ago at Stratford, now in another forum member's collection, I did think they were different, I am still convinced there is another version, either with a crown or the feathers without the scroll ???? can anyone offer any suggestions ?? We will have to meet up ! you can see my humble little lot and then blow me away with yours ??? Dave.
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A man is only as tall as the sum of his deeds !
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#25
12-12-13, 07:27 AM
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G'day Stephen
Your 17th Lancers sleeve Motto is known as a Chadd (thats with a double d) in the regiment. There is photographic evidance of Sgts wering the Chadd from the 1850's. Griff has one in his photo album, there is one in Honour the Light Brigade by Cannon Lumis and else where. Sorry Im not at home to look them up. They wore the Chadd to suspend their Crimea medals from. maybe Griff will post a photo for us, thanks mate. The cap Motto didn't come into use until C 1896. The first Chadds were of unmarked silver and later replaced with hallmarked ones, sorry I dont have the dates. Dont believe Davec2, send it to me for destruction ! Regards Phil.
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#26
12-12-13, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
A small point, the usage of the word 'Chad' started during WWII, one D or two depends on who you talk too Prior to that I understand they were simply know as Arm 'Mottoes'. Rob
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#28
14-12-13, 02:52 PM
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For the Victorian period you would normally see four marks (town, date letter, sponsor, standard (and possibly a duty mark)) that make up an English hallmark.
How many marks are there on your badge? PY.
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#30
16-12-13, 06:00 PM
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Chad
Hi All
What about this one http://www.coldstreammilitaryantique...h=50379&phqu=3 Regards Tony C Quote:
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