Duke of Wellington's Volunteers WM side cap badge

[mooke07]

Hi all,

A badge I had not come across before which I believe to be a Duke of Wellington's Volunteers WM side cap badge. It measures 29x27mm and has nice toned lugs north-south.

The 4th, 5th and 9th West Riding of Yorkshire Volunteers were raised in 1859 and in 1881 became the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Volunteer Battalions of The Duke of Wellington's Regiment.

In 1908 the 1st Battalion of the Volunteers became the 4th Battalion The Duke of Wellington's Regiment, at Halifax. The 2nd became the 5th and 7th Battalions DWR based in Huddersfield and the 3rd Battalion became 6th DWR based in the Craven Valley.

Cheers Dean

[davidwyke]

Hi

It could be DWR (West Riding) but not sure. Ist VB glengarry was DOW crest within circlet, below QVC. Cap badge was same as regular CB but in WM with VB title on ribbon. I think at least one or maybe both of the other 2 VB's wore similar. All three VB's wore the same collar badge - same as regular (elephant & howdah) but in WM. In other words, the DWR VB badges were much the same as the regular badges, other than being in white metal and with different titles.

These DOW crests cause a lot of confusion. I'm inclined to think it might be New Zealand, one of the pre 1911 Wellington Rifle Volunteer units?

David

PS...... if it was DWR (West Riding) it could possibly be the centre of a VB helmet plate ?

[Alan O]

The DWR was one of 10 regts who had unique FSC badges in the late 1890s.

Their badge is remarkably similar to a NZ one so I can't tell you what this is for certain.

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by Alan O

The DWR was one of 10 regts who had unique FSC badges in the late 1890s.

Their badge is remarkably similar to a NZ one so I can't tell you what this is for certain.

Hi Alan

Do you know if they got around to issuing them to the DWR Volunteer Bn's? I always thought they went from the glengarry badge to the DOW crest/ribbon cap badge, for no other reason than I haven't found any photographic evidence to suggest otherwise. Obviously, if the VB's did wear them it would only have been for a short time.

David

[Peter Brydon]

Some comments from the late David Linaker`s article " Field ( Service ) Cap Badges " in Crown Imperial 113 of 2004 attached.

P.B.

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

Some comments from the late David Linaker`s article " Field ( Service ) Cap Badges " in Crown Imperial 113 of 2004 attached.

P.B.

Hi Peter

Thanks for that. Question is, did they also appear in WM?

David

PS..... I have at least 2 of the G/M badges at home but can never decide if they are DWR c 1895-97 FSC badges or NZ collars. The points in the article might help with that.....

[leigh kitchen]

A similar little badge but a different striking, 31mm x 26mm, N/S lugs, attached to a belt.
The belt was given to me in the 80's by a friend who said it was his great uncles, who had served during WWI, believed with the DoW.
It came with two DoW cap badges which were'nt attached to the belt.
I've always taken it to be a collar dog.

[davidwyke]

[QUOTE=leigh kitchen;334926]A similar little badge but a different striking, 31mm x 26mm, N/S lugs, attached to a belt.
The belt was given to me in the 80's by a friend who said it was his great uncles, who had served during WWI, believed with the DoW.
It came with two DoW cap badges which were'nt attached to the belt.
I've always taken it to be a collar dog.[/QUOTE

Hi Leigh

It's not a collar badge. The only WM collar badges which the Dukes wore (pre 1950's) were the elephant & howdah (as on the belt), worn by all three Volunteer Bn's 1880's - 1908.

Perhaps your badge is the Volunteer version of the FSC badge c. 1895-1897? I can't see both your badge and the badge in the original post both being one (assuming they were issued in the first place) as surely they wouldn't have two different dies for a relatively small number of badges in the space of less than two years?

Churchill discusses these badges in his collar badge book and for the most part he attributes them to New Zealand. He does mention such a badge (in gilding metal??) on a pattern card dated 1896 which may be the FSC badge for regulars. He also mentions a similar badge sealed in 1920 (presumably also in G/M) "for side hat ornament). (Can't quite work that one out!). Finally he says a similar badge in silver embroidery has been noted on a pre 1908 Volunteer Officers side hat.

Like I said in an earlier post - these DOW crest badges cause a lot of confusion!

David

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Hi Alan

Do you know if they got around to issuing them to the DWR Volunteer Bn's? I always thought they went from the glengarry badge to the DOW crest/ribbon cap badge, for no other reason than I haven't found any photographic evidence to suggest otherwise. Obviously, if the VB's did wear them it would only have been for a short time.

David

No idea. I have only seen references to the regular bn.

[mooke07]

Many thanks David, Alan, Leigh and Peter for your additional information and thoughts on this badge.

I had discounted the Wellington Rifles collars as have had them and not the same striking as I recall.

Here is another which I think will be of interest to DoW collectors. WM and broached with motto scroll. This looks to me like the centre piece of the DoW Regiment (West Riding) Officers glengarry 1881-95 from a pic of one in the National Army Museum or the Officers HPC 1881-1914 as per K&K 246. In either case as an Officers I would have thought it may have been marked silver. Is it an OR's ?

Great hobby is it not, cheers Dean.

[leigh kitchen]

[/QUOTE

Hi Leigh

It's not a collar badge. The only WM collar badges which the Dukes wore (pre 1950's) were the elephant & howdah (as on the belt), worn by all three Volunteer Bn's 1880's - 1908.

Perhaps your badge is the Volunteer version of the FSC badge c. 1895-1897? I can't see both your badge and the badge in the original post both being one (assuming they were issued in the first place) as surely they wouldn't have two different dies for a relatively small number of badges in the space of less than two years?

Churchill discusses these badges in his collar badge book and for the most part he attributes them to New Zealand. He does mention such a badge (in gilding metal??) on a pattern card dated 1896 which may be the FSC badge for regulars. He also mentions a similar badge sealed in 1920 (presumably also in G/M) "for side hat ornament). (Can't quite work that one out!). Finally he says a similar badge in silver embroidery has been noted on a pre 1908 Volunteer Officers side hat.

Like I said in an earlier post - these DOW crest badges cause a lot of confusion!

David[/QUOTE]

Obviously we can't be sure, but given the undocumented provenance of the belt and badges it seems unlikely that any of the badges would be NZ.

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

Leigh - yes, I agree. Given that the badge came with other DWR insignia then it certainly points in that direction. Strangely, the G/M versions, usually attributed to NZ, turn up quite frequently around here (Yorkshire) but not so much the WM versions.

Dean - presumably you have ruled out a NZ connection. As for collar badges, as far as I remember, Churchill notes that pattern (or similar) but doesn't know what they are. The DWR didn't wear that pattern as a collar badge until silver anodised versions came in in the late 1950's.

So, what does that leave - centre of Officers HP or glengarry, certainly possible although you would expect it to be silver as you say. It's not the O/R's HPC as regular were in G/M and Vols were WM but neither one had the lower scroll.

Clutching at straws but it couldn't be the top part of the BIM cap badge could it?

Sorry I can't be of more help!

David

PS..... Dean - "great hobby is it not?" - frustrating hobby it definitely is!!

[mooke07]

Thanks David,

Both badges I got from the UK and I have ruled out collars and no sharp edge on the lower portion of the motto suggesting not part of BM badge - always good to have items for research, cheers Dean.

[leigh kitchen]

So the officers FSC badge would be similar to this badge but in silver?
Would it have been the elephant and howdah at any time?

[davidwyke]

Hi Leigh

Officers FSC badge - not at home and can't remember for sure.

DWR Officers wore the standard pattern helmet plates & glengarry badges, both with DOW crest & motto centres.

The forage cap badge was a very large embroidered DOW crest & motto. I think this may also have been worn as the 1895 FSC badge but in a smaller size but not sure. As you will know, later Officers cap badges were the same as the O/R's but silver & gilt.

To the best of my knowledge, the elephant & howdah badge has never been worn as a cap badge. Only worn as a collar badge by Officers & O/R's, both with and without scroll, various metals.

David