1916 GM Fakes

[whizzbang]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

Jeff,

A badge commonly sold by UK dealers for £100 as a very rare 1916 all brass Black Watch economy badge! I wonder what a Canadian dealer would sell it to me for as a Canadian badge!

Alan

Alan,

A 42nd Bn CEF like the one on the Kaiser's Bunker site would set you back about £70-80 - maybe a bit more as CEF badge prices seem to have gone through the roof over the past few months (though I think the economic train smash is bringing them back to earth...).

Cheers, Ian.

[Jeff Mc William]

KOSB KC (all brass 1).jpgKOSB KC (all brass 2).jpg

Alan. Thanks for your comments and your judgement re my last two badges. I can of course quite see your point re the flawed logic of making two-piece all brass badges while at the same time attempting to ease and increase production. If indeed that was the reason. However, a lot of illogical decisions were made in WW1 and sometimes events overtook planning, so although I guess you are probably right, who knows for certain ? Please excuse these comments if you find them offensive..I am not dismissing your views, just expressing my own. So, as sonofaqms says, keep on that soapbox !
Can I now test your patience just once more on another point ? :
I noice that you have not so far mentioned the KOSB all-brass badges. These are not on Gaylor's list (and probably not on the forthcomming KLR list either !?) but there were two in the Smith & Wilde Sale on 21st March 2008 Lot 526 (see above). I see they are from two different dies. I wonder if I might ask your view on these and, once again I ask, how is it that their experts take an entirely different view to what seems to be the general opinion of the Forum ?
PS: I promise not to bother you again (on this thread) with any more of my innate enquiries. Regards and thanks. Jeff

[Alan O]

Jeff,

I have not seen brass KOSB badges before but the left hand one is not a WW1 pattern but belongs to an earlier era for a Victorian headdress. The fact that they were not on Gaylor's nearly 'all-inclusive' list is interesting.

As far as auction houses go they are not infallible and with out pointing fingers occasionally their desire to get a best price (and more commission) does seem to override detailed research. Were they sold as 1916 economy or something else?

Your comments are very welcome and I am not unmovable on economy badges! I have just looked at all of the evidence and formulated a view. I may well not be 100% correct but at the moment there is nothing better. I have copied one of KLR's previous posts citing primary source evidence that the economy badges were a labour saving measure. I know Gaylor says it was to save nickel but I think his view was coloured by what happened in WW2. In contrast K&K in the intro to the chapter on plastic badges do infer that while the WW2 economy badges were saving metal, the WW1 ones were saving labour.

The REASON why these "economy" issues came into being is simple. Although I don't have such a book in front of me, any British economic history will tell you that by 1916 (the process started - surprisingly late? - in about the mid 19th century) the cost of labour had outstripped the cost of materials.

Now to the evidence, the following was signed on the 1st March 1916
"For necessary action. For the period of the war, all badges now made partly in G.M. & partly in white metal, will be made wholly of the former. Badges entirely of white metal will remain as heretofore."

The wording to contractors was
"The attention of the contractor is called to the fact that in many cases Badges made hitherto partly of GM & partly of GS are now required to be made of a single thickness of metal only. "

The end came in May 1919
"The decision to the effect that certain cap badges made of gilding metal and white metal, should, as a temporary measure, be made wholly of the former, is now abrogated, and pre-war patterns are to be reverted to. "

To my mind, there is no doubt that it was the construction process that was being addressed. As you will know, there were various other measures taken with badge production at the time - such as the "solid" badges without any expensive voiding / fretting (even though some was mechanical as noted).
feel free to 'bother' away as the forum is all about discussion.

Alan

[Jeff Mc William]

KOSB Pipers.jpg

Alan. Thank you for the information and your gracious comments. Very kind of you.
Re Lot 526 (Smith & Wilde Sale) ; Yes, they were described as "KOSB all brass.." but they did not elaborate. Incidently, your comment re the left hand side badge being Victorian puzzles me a bit, since they are both KC.
Anyway, here is another puzzle ; Lot 494 in the same sale. It is bi-metal, the main part being brass, with a wm castle superimposed. It was a very large badge 90X68mm and was listed as a piper's badge. Strange that it was based on an all brass which was never issued ?? I never cease to be amazed at the apparently infinite variety of KOSB badges all based on the same design. Regards Jeff

[Alan O]

Jeff,

Sorry I meant Edwardian although the same pattern was worn with Victorian crowns! I was getting my monarchs mixed up.

Rather than them being 1916 economy badges it is quite possible that these were worn by the KOSB on some obscure headgear or pouch. I am not saying that all brass badges such as these are fakes - just that they were not made as 1916 economy badges.

Alan

[Jeff Mc William]

Alan. Very many thanks again for all your kindness, trouble, and patience with me on my enquiries. This is indeed a wonderful site for badge collectors or anyone just interested in the subject ! At 72 years old, and with over 50 years of experience in collecting, and later research, behind me..I am still learning ! My congratulations to yourself and all the others who run this forum. I shall now depart this thread and stop "hugging the limelight" Sincerest regards. Jeff
PS: I have seen with interest the Canadian thread on all brass economy badges..excellent !

[Bill A]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

1916 economy badges are a niche area. I must admit that I am learning a lot from Forum mebers. If it was not for the thread on the Pictou Highlanders in the Canadian section then I would be unable to explain the existance of a genuine WW1 brass 'Seaforth Highlanders' badge. As it is I now know that they are WW1 badges but for the Pictou Highlanders.

Alan

A clarification on the brass Pictou Highlanders badge. The Canadian brass "badges" were WW2 issue, not CEF. There was no Pictou battalion in WW1.

[Alan O]

Still learning!

Alan

[Peter Brydon]

One of the bi metal ( spurious ) 10th Kings ( Liverpool Scottish ) glengarry badges I used to have came to me from one of the authors of one of the best known miitary headdress books.

I sold the bi metal badges when I discovered that such badges were never worn which was presumably the reason I was sold the badge in the first place.

Beware of experts.

P.B.

[Jibba Jabba]

Sadly my opinion differs from Alan. I have seen a number of badges manufactured in 1918 by Gaunt that feature the Gaunt stamp that I am convinced are 100 percent genuine. It was not only the cap badges but also British shoulder titles manufactured in 1918. I agree however that the makers stamp font on the badge that started this thread is not one I have seen but I would not condem it as a fake because of this.

Many of the genuine badges I have seen are heavily gilded and of exceptional quality, the majority of fakes are not and if they gilded it is a clumsily executed wash. If the strike is good front and rear and there is a good quality layer of gilding the badge is probably good in my opinion.

As for more recent fakes, there are indeed heavily gilt fake helmet plates but if you've ever tried to find a local high street jeweler to do some guilding for you its a real pain, not to mention a costly exercise.............all of this far out ways the value of the cap badge. So to put it simply its not worth it for the faker if the economy badge when guilded is only worth under 30 pounds. Faking is all about making money. If a process adds little or no value at all to the item in question, the faker will not use that process. Assuming the cost of performing that process outways the value of the final product.

[Alan O]

I agree that Gaunts were marking Offrs badges and other items but not economy badges. The font used is found on ebay fakes and is never found on a genuine badge but different styles of Gaunt lettering are found on WW2 badges and beyond. I have seen some very nice genuine gilt wash Gaunt amrked badges from the 1950s. Obviously gilt wash are not WW1 all brass badges.

I would strongly advise anyone to avoid this particular Gaunt mark as thet are the preserve of fakers.

Alan

[Jibba Jabba]

I am lead to believe that many of the original Gaunt dies were sold. I have always wondered did any of those stamps survive and make it into the hands of those people reproducing the badges? It certainly seams highly likely they did.

[KLR]

JJ, I'm intrigued by your mention of badges dated 1918 - how do you know ?
If you meant 1916 - referring to "economy" badges - then they were made within quite a specific period; March 1916 to May 1919.
(I tend to agree with Alan that it is unlikely that any "economy" badges were "marked" - that would seem to defeat the object, given that it was specifically labour that was the expense being addressed)
J

[Alan O]

J,

Gaunts did not mark many (if any) of their WW1 ORs badges at all except those sold commercially and even then they rarely marked them in WW2. It was not until the 1950s badges that it became the norm.

The only firms that seemed to have marked economy badges was FE Woodwards, FNarborough and Smith and Wright.

A

[KLR]

I meant to add to PB's post (no 25) regarding the Liverpool Scottish "bimetal badge" - which is a nonsense.
I noticed recently on a well known site dealing with Scottish badges that there is another Lpl Scot bimetal badge which is the reverse of the common type and has a GM horse on a WM saltire etc - which is even more of a nonsense !!