Duke of Wellington's Volunteers WM side cap badge

[leigh kitchen]

Thanks, I was wondering whether the collar badge design had ever been worn on the FSC, obviously not then.

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Thanks, I was wondering whether the collar badge design had ever been worn on the FSC, obviously not then.

Hi Leigh

I assume you are thinking along the lines of O/R's wearing collar badges on the newly introduced FSC mid 1890's in regts such as York & Lancs.

I can't say for sure this didn't happen in the Dukes but I've never seen anything to suggest it did.

What happened, officially at least, is that they changed from the glengarry to FSC c. 1895. Initially a brass or G/M DOW crest (without motto) was worn, this was replaced by the familiar cap badge in 1897. I've certainly seen a photo of the 1st Bn wearing the cap badge in 1898.

David

[FMT600]

Gents,

I'm a bit late posting on this thread but do have a few points two of which are speculative so don't take any offence as non is meant.

I collect to the DWR but limit my collecting to 1914 onwards so don't have to many earlier items to compare with.

I have to agree with David that the WM and brooched with motto scroll appears to be part of the standard cap badge and in my opinion an other ranks one as I would expect a Victorian or Edwardian example to be di-cast silver and not di-stamped, a plausible theory would be either converted to or made as a sweetheart badge/brooch, that is unless of course Dean has compared it for dimensions with a cap badge and found them to be different? At which time if different a rethink as to the badges purpose would be required.

Like David I have not seen any pictures to support the wearing of the elephant and howdah collar badge in the FSC but knowing the Dukes penchant for changing insignia more than most Regiments (just look at the number of different patterns of shoulder titles for example) I would not categorically rule it out.

Regarding the motto with scroll collar badges David mentions, these were a DWR manipulation brought on as a result of the Brigade system and more importantly the forcing of the Yorkshire Brigade cap badge on the Yorkshire Infantry Battalions in from 1958 who were to loose their own Regimental cap badges but were to continue to wear their own collar badges along with the Brigade cap badge, the DWR managed to get the new collars introduced which were of course pretty much a scroll-less version of the Regimental cap badge which was quite a coup on their part. These collars can be found in silver plate (officers,), white metal and anodised, I'm not sure if officers silver example exist as I currently don't have a pair in my collection. Subsequently on the reintroduction of Regimental cap badge in the early 1970's to what was by then the Kings Division (having changed from the Yorkshire Brigade in 1968) the DWR readopted the elephant and howdah as collar badges.

FMT600

[leigh kitchen]

Interesting, I was unawars of those circumstances and dates for crest collar badges.

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Hi Leigh

I assume you are thinking along the lines of O/R's wearing collar badges on the newly introduced FSC mid 1890's in regts such as York & Lancs.

I can't say for sure this didn't happen in the Dukes but I've never seen anything to suggest it did.

What happened, officially at least, is that they changed from the glengarry to FSC c. 1895. Initially a brass or G/M DOW crest (without motto) was worn, this was replaced by the familiar cap badge in 1897. I've certainly seen a photo of the 1st Bn wearing the cap badge in 1898.

David

Yes, I was thinking or rather, wondering along those lines.
I have a Tatty old FSC, dark blue with gold piping and gilt one piece elephant buttons. It's been fitted with both lugged and slidered badges and generally abused.

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Interesting, I was unawars of those circumstances and dates for crest collar badges.

The Dukes seem to have a penchant for these things, more recently having managed to manoeuvre themselves on the reduction of the current Yorkshire Regiment from 3 Regular Battalions to 2 from being the junior Battalion (3 Yorks, ex DWR ex 33rd/76th of Foot) to the new senior Battalion having ridden rough shod over the 2 original senior Battalions (1 Yorks, ex PWO, ex 14/15th of Foot) and (2 Yorks, ex Green Howards, ex 19th of Foot) with the end result being:

Old 1 Yorks (PWO) now 2 Yorks
Old 2 Yorks (GH) Disbanded and absorbed by the other 2 Battalions
Old 3 Yorks (DWR) now 1 Yorks

FMT600

[leigh kitchen]

Presumably by being judged better for fitness for role, better performing than the original 2nd Bn?
That happened years ago with 3 RRF becoming 1 RRF, but there were no longer battalion affiliations to the old regiments (officially anyway) to recognise although the "new" 1st Bn christened itself "First" rather than 1st Fusiliers.
Baffled as to how 3 Yorks became 1 Yorks father than 2 York's though.

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Presumably by being judged better for fitness for role, better performing than the original 2nd Bn?
That happened years ago with 3 RRF becoming 1 RRF, but there were no longer battalion affiliations to the old regiments (officially anyway) to recognise although the "new" 1st Bn christened itself "First" rather than 1st Fusiliers.
Baffled as to how 3 Yorks became 1 Yorks father than 2 York's though.

Leigh,

Only the Regimental Colonel, the Regimental board and the MOD know what went on behind closed doors, suffice to say the Regimental Colonel is no longer a popular chap with many, rather than one Battalion being judged better than another as far as FFR goes, more likely it was a case of who knows who as knowing all 3 former Battalions very well I don't think there was much to choose between them on performance.

FMT600

[badger123]

Originally Posted by FMT600

The Dukes seem to have a penchant for these things, more recently having managed to manoeuvre themselves on the reduction of the current Yorkshire Regiment from 3 Regular Battalions to 2 from being the junior Battalion (3 Yorks, ex DWR ex 33rd/76th of Foot) to the new senior Battalion having ridden rough shod over the 2 original senior Battalions (1 Yorks, ex PWO, ex 14/15th of Foot) and (2 Yorks, ex Green Howards, ex 19th of Foot) with the end result being:

Old 1 Yorks (PWO) now 2 Yorks
Old 2 Yorks (GH) Disbanded and absorbed by the other 2 Battalions
Old 3 Yorks (DWR) now 1 Yorks

FMT600

Sorry, I can't agree! I don't believe that for a minute that any of the antecedent regiments were being ridden rough shod over by the Dukes. The fact is that 3 Yorkshire regiments with an incredible amount of history with outstanding records of service have gone.

On the face of it, what you are saying looks like that was the case but to those still within the Yorkshire Regiment when the 3 regular battalions were reduced to 2, it was made clear that although the then 2nd Bn (GH) was being removed from the Order of Battle, the personal of all 3 Bn's would be mixed up and previous regimental identities would no longer exist but a single Yorkshire Regiment 'identity' would prevail.

This even extended to the Queens and Regimental Colours of 3 Yorks (DWR) being laid up.

Furthermore, if what you are saying was true i.e. that the Dukes had in some sort of Machiavellian manner, manoeuvred themselves to being the senior battalion, I am 100% that the name DWR would had survived in some shape or form. It doesn't.

I can assure you from my own close up observations that the soldiers in what was the 3rd Bn (who felt they WERE Dukes), no longer feel that it is the case and that they are simply now soldiers in a battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment.

In short, there is no junior or senior battalion within the Yorkshire Regiment based on the old regimental identities nor do the remaining battalions see themselves as GH, PWO or DWR. The old regimental identities have disappeared for those that still serve within the regiment. However, like generations of ex serving soldiers who have seen their regiments/battalions disbanded, the identities still exist for those who USED to be PWO, GH's or DWR.

And lets not forget the 4th Battalion who still exist and like the their regular counterparts have embraced the concept of being soldiers of the Yorkshire Regiment when their previous Green Howards, PWO and Dukes identities were taken away some years ago.

Apologies for a thread diversion, Ivan

[davidwyke]

Hi FMT 600

I agree with everything in the above posts (re badges!). As regards the post 1958 DWR (DOW crest & motto) collar badges - do you know if O/R's ever wore the WM version? I know they certainly exist (and I've even seen a g/m one which has no obvious explanation) but I thought only the anodised collars were authorised?

Having said that, as you implied in your Leeds Rifles post, what was authorised and what was actually worn can often be two very different things!

David

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Hi FMT 600

I agree with everything in the above posts (re badges!). As regards the post 1958 DWR (DOW crest & motto) collar badges - do you know if O/R's ever wore the WM version? I know they certainly exist (and I've even seen a g/m one which has no obvious explanation) but I thought only the anodised collars were authorised?

Having said that, as you implied in your Leeds Rifles post, what was authorised and what was actually worn can often be two very different things!

David

David,

I believe that the white metal collars may have well being worn, I have the feeling that if so they would not have been authorised and if they were I'm sure that they would not have been paid for at public expense, hopefully some one will be able to confirm this or not. Possibly a case of delays in the procurement system for AA badges (considering the policy was not to make and issue new patterns until old stock was exhausted) resulting in the Regiment purchasing metal badges in the interim considering that dies would already have been made for the AA versions.

FMT600

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by badger123

Sorry, I can't agree! I don't believe that for a minute that any of the antecedent regiments were being ridden rough shod over by the Dukes. The fact is that 3 Yorkshire regiments with an incredible amount of history with outstanding records of service have gone.

On the face of it, what you are saying looks like that was the case but to those still within the Yorkshire Regiment when the 3 regular battalions were reduced to 2, it was made clear that although the then 2nd Bn (GH) was being removed from the Order of Battle, the personal of all 3 Bn's would be mixed up and previous regimental identities would no longer exist but a single Yorkshire Regiment 'identity' would prevail.

This even extended to the Queens and Regimental Colours of 3 Yorks (DWR) being laid up.

Furthermore, if what you are saying was true i.e. that the Dukes hadn some sort of Machiavellian manner, manoeuvred themselves to being the senior battalion, I am 100% that the name DWR would had survived in some shape or form. It doesn't.

I can assure you from my own close up observations that the soldiers in what was the 3rd Bn (who felt they WERE Dukes), no longer feel that it is the case and that they are simply now soldiers in a battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment.

In short, there is no junior or senior battalion within the Yorkshire Regiment based on the old regimental identities nor do the remaining battalions see themselves as GH, PWO or DWR. The old regimental identities have disappeared for those that still serve within the regiment. However, like generations of ex serving soldiers who have seen their regiments/battalions disbanded, the identities still exist for those who USED to be PWO, GH's or DWR.

And lets not forget the 4th Battalion who still exist and like the their regular counterparts have embraced the concept of being soldiers of the Yorkshire Regiment when their previous Green Howards, PWO and Dukes identities were taken away some years ago.

Apologies for a thread diversion, Ivan

Ivan,

Let me point out however that I never mentioned the TA or as it is now the Army Reserve, who in Yorkshire changed their unit designations/titles, insignia, Regimental and even arm of service affiliations and recruiting areas on a number of occasions between 1961 - 2006 and therefore as a generalisation the soldiers did not have the same cap badge loyalty as those in the Regular Battalions.

I will stick to the Regular Army Battalions and stick by what I have written as a great deal of bitterness exists over the restructuring and the FACT that the 1st Battalion colours were taken from the then 1st (PWO) Battalion and presented to the then 3rd (DWR) Battalion at Warminster which is an unprecedented occurrence and an insult to the soldiers of the original 1st Battalion. Downscaling to 2 Battalions made the retention of the third set of colours unnecessary, possibly why they were laid up. I do believe that the DWR second set of honorary colours (a DWR peculiarity) were retained in the Regiment.

I do believe the original plan which was the one the troops were briefed on was for the 2nd (GH) Bn to be axed with the soldiers being assimilated into the other 2 Battalions, I don't think any mention was made of the 3rd Bn becoming the 1st and this was a later decision arrived at by the Colonel of the Regiment for reasons not clearly explained, I don't know of any military reason for the old 3rd to be made the new 1st and the old 1st to be made the new 2nd, unless there was such a extreme military reason for this decision protocol (not to mention common sense) would dictate that either the 2nd Bn be gapped and only the 1st and 3rd remain or that the old 3rd step up to become the new 2nd, I hope that from this you can at least see why certain elements follow the conspiracy theory line.

Ivan as you point out that this has been a diversion on this thread I'm not going to comment further about it on here so should you wish to discuss anything else regarding the matter please drop me an email or PM.

Irrespective of what Battalions remain I wish the Yorkshire Regiment all the best in their future endeavour's as they are now of course the only Infantry Regiment carrying Yorkshire in their title and whom have a long and distinguished linage to follow.

Kind regards,

FMT600

[AndyC_65]

Originally Posted by FMT600

snip

Regarding the motto with scroll collar badges David mentions, these were a DWR manipulation brought on as a result of the Brigade system and more importantly the forcing of the Yorkshire Brigade cap badge on the Yorkshire Infantry Battalions in from 1958 who were to loose their own Regimental cap badges but were to continue to wear their own collar badges along with the Brigade cap badge, the DWR managed to get the new collars introduced which were of course pretty much a scroll-less version of the Regimental cap badge which was quite a coup on their part. These collars can be found in silver plate (officers,), white metal and anodised, I'm not sure if officers silver example exist as I currently don't have a pair in my collection. Subsequently on the reintroduction of Regimental cap badge in the early 1970's to what was by then the Kings Division (having changed from the Yorkshire Brigade in 1968) the DWR readopted the elephant and howdah as collar badges.

FMT600

I don't have the WM variant, but here's the other two. Thanks for clarifying the dates on this vs the Elephant/Howdah. Did the Anodised E/H exist before the crest, or was it brass E/H to AA Crest to AA E/H?

[davidwyke]

Hi Andy

As far as I know DWR collars went from the brass (g/m) Elephant & howdah to the anodised crest (as shown in your pics) in 1958 and then to the anodised elephant/howdah c. 1970.

So, to answer your question - no, I don't think the anodised E/H collar existed before the crest!

David