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  #16  
Old 27-09-20, 03:24 PM
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Very old verb but little used since the Jacobite invasion of 1745
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  #17  
Old 27-09-20, 03:43 PM
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Though the KLR did not have an "all GM badges" - their 5th Bn and 7th Bn had all GM and all WM respectively. just as with Jelly's examples, these KLR TF badges came in one piece or in two pieces. Moreover, these 1 or 2 piece types are also exactly the same die (horse and scroll) as the regular BM versions - again with QRWS !
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  #18  
Old 27-09-20, 03:47 PM
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...special space !?
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  #19  
Old 27-09-20, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by matti467 View Post
Very old verb but little used since the Jacobite invasion of 1745
And revered for their formidable conjugative abilities, your Jacobites.

Last edited by Jelly Terror; 27-09-20 at 04:29 PM.
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  #20  
Old 27-09-20, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLR View Post
Though the KLR did not have an "all GM badges" - their 5th Bn and 7th Bn had all GM and all WM respectively. just as with Jelly's examples, these KLR TF badges came in one piece or in two pieces. Moreover, these 1 or 2 piece types are also exactly the same die (horse and scroll) as the regular BM versions - again with QRWS !
Not wishing to go off-piste; I do wonder with the cessation of the production of all-G/M badges in 1919 (please note that I refer here only to those badges that were previously produced in bi-metal), and the large amount of stock which remained unused/unissued, whether some manufacturers might simply have adapted their excess all-G/M stock, by applying white metal scrolls directly on top of the unsupplied all-G/M badges. But that's a little outside the scope of this thread.
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  #21  
Old 27-09-20, 05:22 PM
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JT, I recently was examining the F.E. Woodward QRWS EI 1916 GM variant. It appears Woodward may have produced contemporary unmarked badges along with their MM version but it also looks like there possibly is a much later re-strike as well. The sliders look like they’re possibly the key to differentiating unmarked Woodwards from re-strikes.

Are your observations with the Woodward versions similar with mine above? Also if you have a BM MM Woodward or a similar BM unmarked Woodward version, do both or either have the die flaw on the reverse left scroll near its end?

I’ve thus far identified 7 QRWS EI variants, of which I have 5 (3 in hand & 2 enroute); your 2nd photo in your 11th post is an 8th example!

I’ve been working on ID’ing other EI variants as well and also noticed several EI dies have corresponding BM matches—Norfolk badges spring immediately to mind. Rather than BM badges coming after their EI counterparts as you suggested earlier, I’ve been theorizing the BM versions came first and their EI matches came afterward. My thoughts ran along this line of reasoning because of badge shortages and rising labor costs along with skilled labor shortages as the war progressed, i.e., it might have been quicker and less expensive for makers already in the business to use existing dies for EIs. However, rather and than a this or that scenario as we have respectively put forth, from a business’s perspective, using existing dies to tool up for EIs, later using those same dies to transition back to BMs when EIs were discontinued, and converting surplus stock makes the most economic sense where this was feasible for badges such as QRWS badges.

For entities that left this sector after the war, one could either expect BM versions were no longer produced from their EI dies or they sold or transferred their dies to entities that continued producing badges; additionally, they may have done similarly with any surplus stock. In other words if an entity kept their dies and surplus when they left the sector, then one could expect to not find those patterns postwar in BM. On the other hand, if there was a sale or transfer, then one could expect to find similar patterns in BM even though their original makers were no longer in the sector.

Cheers,
Jay

Last edited by SemperFi; 27-09-20 at 07:50 PM. Reason: grammar
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  #22  
Old 27-09-20, 07:06 PM
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Oh b****r I contributed more - but I was timed out and I can't remember but I certainly what Jelly said and the 1919 and the 1928 still going (Bull MHS Nov 2015 p83


I don't have any Woodward KLR badges - reg or TF - at least, not marked!
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  #23  
Old 28-09-20, 07:45 AM
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Jay,

Quote:
Originally Posted by SemperFi View Post
JT, I recently was examining the F.E. Woodward QRWS EI 1916 GM variant. It appears Woodward may have produced contemporary unmarked badges along with their MM version but it also looks like there possibly is a much later re-strike as well. The sliders look like they’re possibly the key to differentiating unmarked Woodwards from re-strikes.
Woodward did indeed produce unmarked QRWS badges in addition to their maker-marked examples. To date, I have never encountered a bi-metal badge that bears a maker mark, despite my best efforts to track one down. If any forum members have such a badge I would be very grateful if they would be willing to post a picture. All the examples I have ever seen bearing the Woodward mark have been all-G/M, though not every all-G/M lamb carries the mark.

With regard to the much later badges to which you refer, there is a badge which I consider to be extremely spurious. I wonder if it is the same one you are thinking of? My theory is that someone possibly acquired the old Woodward dies and started knocking out these abominations (below):

Restrike 1.jpg Restrike 2.jpg

Clearly related to the kosher Woodward badges but more of an evil twin that a kissing cousin. Slider attached to the back of the flag (though there are examples which have the slider attached to the body of the lamb), poor definition to the scroll... the list goes on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SemperFi View Post
Are your observations with the Woodward versions similar with mine above? Also if you have a BM MM Woodward or a similar BM unmarked Woodward version, do both or either have the die flaw on the reverse left scroll near its end?
Are you able to provide an example of the die flaw to which you refer? I am not familiar with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SemperFi View Post
Rather than BM badges coming after their EI counterparts as you suggested earlier, I’ve been theorizing the BM versions came first and their EI matches came afterward.
I think perhaps I may not have been clear with the point I was making (apologies). I do not suggest all-G/M badges preceded bi-metal badges. My point is that where we see pre-1924, bi-metal QRWS badges with white-metal, overlaid scrolls which have lettering stamped into the brass section of the scroll (see images below) that it would seem logical to conclude that manufacturers (on the cessation of the production of all-G/M badges in 1919) might simply have adapted their excess all-G/M stock, by applying white metal scrolls directly on top of the unsupplied all-G/M badges. If this is correct, it then becomes possible to say with certainty that certain variants were issued/in use post-1919.

JT QRWS 1.jpg
JT QRWS 2.jpg

If the white-metal scroll were to be removed from the badge in the pictures above, it would reveal an all-G/M badge beneath (as in the example below):

JY QRWS 3.jpg

JT

Last edited by Jelly Terror; 28-09-20 at 07:56 AM.
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  #24  
Old 28-09-20, 08:10 AM
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There is also an issue with fleeces. Depends on the breed of sheep used to model for the die. There is some consternation, anecdotal, that the colonel of the regiment was unhappy withe the breed being a Sussex variety from the neighbouring county, Surrey having no native breed, and having later lambs based on a Derby tup. Apparently the Kings used the original horse of their colonel, a picture hanging in the officers mess hence continuity in shape and form.
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  #25  
Old 28-09-20, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLR View Post
Oh b****r I contributed more - but I was timed out and I can't remember but I certainly what Jelly said and the 1919 and the 1928 still going (Bull MHS Nov 2015 p83


I don't have any Woodward KLR badges - reg or TF - at least, not marked!
Very annoying when that happens.
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  #26  
Old 28-09-20, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matti467 View Post
There is also an issue with fleeces. Depends on the breed of sheep used to model for the die. There is some consternation, anecdotal, that the colonel of the regiment was unhappy withe the breed being a Sussex variety from the neighbouring county, Surrey having no native breed, and having later lambs based on a Derby tup. Apparently the Kings used the original horse of their colonel, a picture hanging in the officers mess hence continuity in shape and form.
And further consternation over the original Agnus Dei design which (again apocryphal) was a study of a beast rendered by the artist in mid-May to mid-July of 1897. The sketches submitted to the WO for approval are said to have been of a rather emaciated and pitiful-looking creature, mid-May to mid-July (unbeknownst to the poor pittore) being shearing season, of course.
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  #27  
Old 28-09-20, 08:53 AM
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I always assumed the Pascal Lamb would be a Middle Eastern breed like a Jacob, but probably the first depictions would have come from medieval England so perhaps not.

Going back to die statistics I have been looking at Devonshire Regiment badges in some detail for a while, there are lots of different dies and only a couple with makers marks, but I'm starting to look more closely at the device centre bottom of the circlet often described as a "Rose", the Rose was used in the centre of Devonshire Regiment Buttons for a short period 1881-1883 until Exeter Castle became normal so it has associations with the Regiment, this device has a huge variety of stiles either with 4 or 5 elements/petals? and interestingly similar devices appear on the walls of some older houses in Cullompton where I live. It could be that different badge making companies made their own Rose so they could identify their product or perhaps its just artistic license, perhaps the number of berries on a Norfolk Regiment Badge could also have a similar potential hidden meaning?

Anyway its an interesting subject.

Rob
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  #28  
Old 28-09-20, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Miller View Post
I always assumed the Pascal Lamb would be a Middle Eastern breed like a Jacob, but probably the first depictions would have come from medieval England so perhaps not.

Going back to die statistics I have been looking at Devonshire Regiment badges in some detail for a while, there are lots of different dies and only a couple with makers marks, but I'm starting to look more closely at the device centre bottom of the circlet often described as a "Rose", the Rose was used in the centre of Devonshire Regiment Buttons for a short period 1881-1883 until Exeter Castle became normal so it has associations with the Regiment, this device has a huge variety of stiles either with 4 or 5 elements/petals? and interestingly similar devices appear on the walls of some older houses in Cullompton where I live. It could be that different badge making companies made their own Rose so they could identify their product or perhaps its just artistic license, perhaps the number of berries on a Norfolk Regiment Badge could also have a similar potential hidden meaning?

Anyway its an interesting subject.

Rob
Rob,

Have you managed to ascertain how many different dies were used for the Devonshire Regiment badge?

JT
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  #29  
Old 28-09-20, 09:16 AM
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I made this album a while ago, at the time there were 25 but that included a couple of Bi Metal Far or Middle East types which with hindsight shouldn't be included, I think I have found a couple more since I last visited this album so I will try to update it shortly.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...p?albumid=2751

Rob
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  #30  
Old 28-09-20, 01:57 PM
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Not exactly a horse (or lamb/sheep) but the 1939 Pattern Liverpool Irish WM voided had only got two dies as far as I know - and I've looked at loads, one marked by Firmin and one by Gaunt
If they are not marked the only difference is the presence of two thorns on the shamrock.....!
(The 1908 Pattern has 4 dies as far as I can find....)

The 1908 Lpl Scottish Pattern has, as we know, two parts - the horse etc superimposed on the saltire etc.
I have found different 7 horses and 6 different saltires. They all fit 1 = A etc except D is found on 2, 4 and 5 ! (horse die 2 is the only one identified - by Gaunt)
No wonder that they introduced a one piece badge in 1917 ! (which has elements of 6 and E) and the pipers have a different saltire die....

Last edited by KLR; 28-09-20 at 02:28 PM.
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