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  #136  
Old 23-11-20, 01:26 PM
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Appreciate your input Tim , hopefully between us all we'll get as answer to this puzzle.

Here is a photo of a '9 ball' HMNZ Transports which has a C.M. Bay makers mark (Thanks to dumdum).

Edit : Added makers mark.


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File Type: jpg nz transports1.jpg (56.8 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg nz transports maker.jpg (86.9 KB, 5 views)
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  #137  
Old 23-11-20, 01:39 PM
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Thanks Mike, the two mm's from the plain (yours and mine) look similar to me, furthering the confusion, lol
I got my badge off ebay, a few years ago, so it is certainly possible it is a copy. I'm keeping an open mind at the moment, hoping it isn't but will see where the evidence leads.

I'll add that after you comparing these to the 1914 OWS badge, I looked at 14 different makers of the 1914 badge, and all had 9 balls...

cheers, Tim
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  #138  
Old 23-11-20, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
It's a good question as to the plain ones - were there 2 dies? But were there enough made to justify 2 dies? Maybe one broke and they had to make another?
Regarding 2 dies , I could understand that if it was only for the HMNZ Transports badge but the the fact that it also appears to have been the case with the 'silver' Admiralty badge is confusing.

Perhaps , the same person designed both badges and after an initial run the 'error' (too many balls ! ) was noticed and new dies were made.......


......or the 10 ball badges were badly made copies !

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  #139  
Old 23-11-20, 04:09 PM
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I wonder, do the balls represent anything? Some symbolism or other heraldic reason? ie is there a reason they should be 9 and 10 is illogical?

We really need to call them 'dots' I think....
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  #140  
Old 23-11-20, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
I wonder, do the balls represent anything? Some symbolism or other heraldic reason? ie is there a reason they should be 9 and 10 is illogical?

We really need to call them 'dots' I think....
Ahem, I believe they are called Pearls, Tim
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  #141  
Old 23-11-20, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
I wonder, do the balls represent anything? Some symbolism or other heraldic reason? ie is there a reason they should be 9 and 10 is illogical?

We really need to call them 'dots' I think....
There should be 9 because that is what the War Office decided !

"St. Edward's crown is the crown supposed to be heraldically represented when for State or official purposes the crown is represented over the Royal Arms or other insignia."

"...... during the reign of Queen Victoria many of the other details were very much "at the mercy" of the artist.

Soon after the accession of King Edward VII. the matter was brought under consideration, and the opportunity afforded by the issue of a War Office Sealed Pattern of the Royal Crown and Cypher for use in the army was taken advantage of to notify his Majesty's pleasure, that for official purposes the Royal Crown should be as shown in Fig. 642."

See photo

So , if this was the official War Office decision then any badge with 10 Balls/dots/pearls could not be an official issue.


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File Type: jpg Crown.jpg (86.3 KB, 8 views)
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  #142  
Old 23-11-20, 11:12 PM
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Hi Mike and Chipper

Thanks guys for your input. Glad to know that there are other people who look at things in the same level of detail as I do!

The question of dies could quite possibly be answered by the breakage of the item. Steel hardening was a little of a "black art" way back and, I'm told, that many of the steels were water hardening which could result in excessive brittleness.

It's amazing what you can learn from the old fellows if you listen to them....

The maker's mark question could also be one of "Where the heck did we put that? Oh, let's just make another one!"
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  #143  
Old 26-11-20, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_vee View Post
Perhaps , the same person designed both badges and after an initial run the 'error' (too many balls ! ) was noticed and new dies were made.......
Thanks to dumdum posting photos of two 'Admiralty' badges there are now five examples to compare. Strangely none have makers marks.

The photos are in the order I first saw them , showing the 'issue' numbers . I couldn't quite get the sizing right but as far as I am aware they are all the approximately the same size.

What is interesting is that the two with the lowest numbers are the '9 ball' versions , so why would they change the design of the crown (from the "official" version) for the later issued badges ?

Note
A War Office document from May 1901 states :
"His majesty now wishes one uniform Crown alone to become the sealed pattern for the Service, - the Tudor, "Henry VII" Crown, chosen and always used by Queen Victoria personally; all other patterns are to be abolished."

Unfortunately , as the HMNZ Transports badges were not 'numbered' there is no way of knowing when their design was also changed.

My first thought was that possibly a different manufactuer was used but as far as I am aware the HMNZ Transports badges were only made by C.M. Bay (as they have makers marks).

I have to keep searching for an answer .


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Attached Images
File Type: jpg Admir 1F.jpg (44.4 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Admir 1R.jpg (33.6 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg Admir 2F.jpg (69.8 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Admir 2R.jpg (38.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg Admir 3F.jpg (87.6 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Admir 3R.jpg (62.0 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Admir 4F.jpg (34.3 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Admir 4R.jpg (32.5 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Admir 5F.jpg (32.8 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Admir 5R.jpg (30.8 KB, 1 views)
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  #144  
Old 26-11-20, 04:22 PM
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Hi All

I feel we will get to the bottom of this (keeping the 'balls' theme going ) But not without more examples of the plain version. I am hesitantly thinking the 10 ball version may be bad, but hopefully more evidence will come to light with time and play my fear! We also haven't discussed the possibility the 10 ball is simply a mistake by the die maker.... not outside the realms of possibility...

cheers, Tim
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  #145  
Old 26-11-20, 04:33 PM
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Every time I think I am beginning to get a handle on this, something comes along to throw my ideas to one side. These photos seem to throw the theories in the air in one respect but they also too seem to support other theories. It is clear that the designs differ to quite a significant amount, be it the edging of the crown, degree of seeding on the background and differing fonts. However, Mike’s suggestions of different manufactures does appear to be a strong possibility. I am now feeling less certain of the ‘10 ball crown’ and drawn more towards the ‘9 ball crown’ examples. However, the enamelled version has come as a real surprise.
So I am concluding........er, um, well, yes!
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  #146  
Old 27-11-20, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
We also haven't discussed the possibility the 10 ball is simply a mistake by the die maker.... not outside the realms of possibility...
When I first noticed the anomaly between the Admiralty badges I assumed it was possibly a simple design/die error but when the same 'anomaly' appears on the HMNZ Transports badges that seems unlikely.

What are the odds that two manufacturers (on opposite sides of the world) would both make the same mistake on different badges at approximately the same time ?

Here are photos of three HMNZ Transports badges with C.M. Bay makers marks , what I find difficult to comprehend is how a well established and reputable manufacturer could make such a basic design error.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Transports 1.jpg (61.7 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Transports 1 R.jpg (54.5 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Transports 2.jpg (84.0 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg Transports 2 R.jpg (76.6 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Transports 3.jpg (71.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Transports 3 R.jpg (59.1 KB, 2 views)
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  #147  
Old 27-11-20, 11:32 AM
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Another twist to the puzzle (or perhaps a puzzling twist !) , based on a debate of 15th March 1915 (published in Hansard).

I've previously posted this quote from Tom Tulloch-Marshall's article:

"The standard OWS 1914 enamel badge was introduced in late 1914 with an Admiralty memo of 26th December 1914 giving it the title "Admiralty War Service Badge"."

This badge was for shipyard workers “whose services were indispensable for the rapid completion of HM Ships and Armaments”.

This quote from Hansard seems to imply there was possibly another badge:

"Mr Peto asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the desirability of granting War service badges to those who are engaged in our merchant ships at the present time, similar to the War service badges which are now granted by the Admiralty to those serving in merchant vessels which they have chartered or requisitioned?".

So , is he referring to the standard enamel 1914 OWS badge or was there a specific War Service badge for those serving on merchant vessels ?

Discuss


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  #148  
Old 27-11-20, 12:26 PM
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Do we know if the Board of Trade were favourable to the idea? Would be good to find out one way or another.
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  #149  
Old 27-11-20, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charliedog012012 View Post
Do we know if the Board of Trade were favourable to the idea? Would be good to find out one way or another.
Reply from Dr. Macnamara The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY :
"The hon. Member's proposal involves a very considerable extension of the present scope of the scheme for distributing War badges. I will take an opportunity of discussing it with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, but further than that I am afraid that I can give no undertaking."

The bit I found interesting was this :

" War service badges which are now granted by the Admiralty to those serving in merchant vessels "

Does this refer to the HMNZ Transports badges or to a different badge ?


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  #150  
Old 28-11-20, 01:42 PM
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Hi All

My guess would be it's not referring to the NZ badge, as I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, 1914 would be too early for the NZ transports to have sailed??

DumDum - here's an interesting thought - Is Bay still in operation in NZ? If so, maybe they have records/old dies hanging around in a dusty corner somewhere....

Cheers, Tim
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