QC Para Beret badge and metal Para wing-opinions

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Team

Seeking opinions on the below.

The QC para badge is 70mm in width and is unvioided, looks detailed but no markings.

Metal para wing unsure.

I brought from seller,who was given them by his boss who was a local Fire Bde Commander who served in the paras. Hoping to find more info but would like others opinions on both badges.

cheers

Phill

[Luc]

The brass tropical wings look fine, though I'm unsure about the cap badge. I think prefer the voided crown with the more rounded and raised edge small feathers opposite of the parachute. But perhaps these are simply variations.

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Luc

I dont have the knowledge base of cap badges , im unsure what the Para Beret badge metal is called.

Have no idea when made or when the receipient received it.

Its very finely detailed on the Lion and crown and doesnt look like it has any imprefections overall.

Most of the QC I have seen are voided.

Would it be faked and why or private purchase, dont know if these were easily available in the 1960s-70's?

I'm hoping I get more info from the seller.

Here are close ups of the Lion/Crown, are these typical detailed QC?


cheers

Phill

[elwe23]

Hi guys, I'm taking the chance of the thread of Phil to add mine into the discussion.
Don't know anything if it is an original QC one or a copy and if anodised ?

cheers

[Mike H]

There are a.couple of non void anodised examples. Gaunt London being one.
I'm sure Bess will jump in and add the other non voids to the list.

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by elwe23

Hi guys, I'm taking the chance of the thread of Phil to add mine into the discussion.
Don't know anything if it is an original QC one or a copy and if anodised ?

cheers

Not anodised, white metal, post 1953, though I don't like the squareness of the inner wing feathers and I suspect it is a copy

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks for comments Mike/Jerry

What of my one?

This is out of my area of collecting so if one could clarify ,I can understand reproductions of KC but why QC , could they not have been sold by militaria outlets in the 60-80s to para's as replacements?

Or originals were only issued (supplied by MOD sanctioned manufacturers)once passing the course and that is the only way you could of received the badges?

cheers

Phill

[Luke H]

QC metal Para badges are a minefield within a minefield.

Below is an image of the example in the Marsh Militaria repro catalogue, plus another with the classic 15mm fake Gaunt . London mark and one with the 1970s (and after) fake Gaunt B’ham mark.

The factories supplying Marsh did also at times it appears stock some PRI shops. I’ve no knowledge as to if this extends to the Parachute Regiment. Notwithstanding these have been produced in such vast numbers that without doubt majority were made intended for the collectors market. Personally I’d want cast iron provenance from any Marsh die claimed PRI purchase badge.

This thread is also probably worth a read.

Personally I would not accept either the badge from post #1 or #4 in my collection.

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Luc

Good solid answer , just one question mine measure 70 mm width and has no markings on the slider,would that make any differance and or were all authorized para badges marked.

cheers

Phill

[elwe23]

Originally Posted by Phill Lockett

Thanks Luc

Good solid answer , just one question mine measure 70 mm width and has no markings on the slider,would that make any differance and or were all authorized para badges marked.

cheers

Phill

haha mine neither Phil. But it looks very much like a copy in term of quality of fabrication I feel. It was sold to me in the 90's by a normandy commando veteran.
I agree with you why bothering copying those badges.

@Luke Thanks for the explanations. I'm gonna read the thread. Marsh name is back in the game. What's a PRI shop ?
I should have done more detailed photos.

@JerryBB thanks also for your feedback.

[grey_green_acorn]

PRI = President of the Regimental Institute.
An officer, often the Second in Command, is appointed ‘President’ and account holder of what is effectively the unit non-public fund. Its main income sources include sports grants from for example the Nuffield Foundation Trust and general income from the PRI Shop which would sell Regimental clothing, badges, commemorative items and sports equipment.

Badges sold by the PRI shop are usually of better quality than the issue item and are worn by soldiers. Most stable belts are sold within units by the PRI.

Tim

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Phill Lockett

Thanks Luc

Good solid answer , just one question mine measure 70 mm width and has no markings on the slider,would that make any differance and or were all authorized para badges marked.

cheers

Phill

The majority of the QC metal Para badges on sliders are unmarked as can be seen from a search of eBay… I stopped counting at 15 and this includes three from known repro sellers: ‘n*plesturtle’; ‘w*iffel’ and ‘w*wer3’.

Post WW2 and into the 1950s the frequency of maker marked sliders on metal badges increases. This is witnessed across a great many patterns and makers inc. Firmin, Gaunt (large font London), Buttons & Co, Dowler etc. So I’d expect examples from this era before the intro of AA’s in the 60s to likely be marked.

Later around the time of the PRIs they seem to be getting their stock from who collectors regards as the ‘fakers’. Creating a grey area. Hence my earlier words about wanting provenance of actually being worn.

So for example if your local Fire Brigade commander ended up with 5, 10, 20, 50 badges from unsold PRI stock, I would think a degree of subjectivity creeps in. If unworn is essentially a repro badge that sat in a PRI for a time enough for you to consider it genuine? Answers may vary I suspect.

Personally for me for such a badge I’d want it to have been actually been worn and have got it direct from the wearer.

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Tim,Luke

This is great info for myself and new collectors in understanding what was going on during the 1950's-70's with regards to the use of sliders made for collectors, restrikes , the Marsh militaria repro catalogues,all of which you seasoned collectors know about.

I had read bits and pieces here and there on the forum,not fully understanding the full story and with what you gentleman have added is a good collectors lesson.

Again thanks Tim , I now understand the relationship between PRI shops and raisng of funds for resell which opens the door for cheaper repro or restrikes(?) for more profit,maybe the stamped cardboard could be from a PRI shop,anyway in my instance provenance is the key.

Harry Katyn quoted this from Laurence Archer,unfortunetly the photo is too small.

"Laurence Archer’s 1980 ‘The Badge Collectors Guide to Restrikes’. In his pamphlet Archer only makes mention of the JR Gaunt London mark running up the slider on a “range of re-issues of badges of the 1950’s” and that in the latter half of the 1970’s the same mark appeared on a number of short-lived and scarce badges that had re-appeared on the market in quantity. The 1970’s examples sliders had a “small brazed join where the slider normally bent at a right angle before the joint with the back of the badge”, apparently to disguise that the badges were of recent manufacture which would have been obvious if they had of been stamped with the then current JR Gaunt B’Ham mark. (Archer states that this braze would normally require a powerful magnifying glass to reveal it so it does not appear to be obvious in the attached photo.)"

I have attached a close up of the cap badge and note is this what he is refering to as a small brazed join?

cheers

Phill

[Luke H]

Laurie Archer was mistaken with his assertion of the mark’s orientation ‘reading up the slider’ = restrike.

The note in question shows the braze join referred to in a small diagram bottom right.

To confirm your photograph does not show the braze the article refers to.

[bess55]

Chaps, an example I picked up earlier this year. Queens crown with Gaunt London 'reading up' the slider.

I suspect we may put too much stock in the reading up or reading down of sliders - is it not just how it came out of the pile to the metal.worker who affixed them? As long as it didnt face inwards (and some errors of course do) then it was all good . . . no? I suspect thatbis certainley the case with anodised alluminium badges - especially Gaunt made examples.