South Wales Borderers Pagri Badge

[Alan O]

Denis

It could still be as the use of pagri badges seems to have been under regimental arrangements so may have been worn for a short period of overseas service. As there were 2 battalions there is also the option that it was worn as well as the one I show.

If you have not already if you go to https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=118595 this is the type of GH pagri badge in use.

Whilst metal badges were often used in Victorian periods, they fell out of favour and were often replaced by cloth flashes but there was a resurgence in between the wars.

[cbuehler]

Mess waiter badges tend to be rather large, unlike the badge in question which is small. Could this have been some sort of Glengarry or FSC badge that was not adopted?

CB

[Alan O]

The Green Howards Museum state that they have every cap badge ever worn in their collection. You might email them.

[mooke07]

To add to this most interesting thread. Three of my own. If we follow such a precedent then they are a SWB QVC WM pagri on copper loops as per 41st’s followed by a HLI WM pagri with HLI QVC WM collar (Churchill 1635) brooch pin and a Manchester QVC BM pagri with RHS collar (Churchill 1519) with broken brooch pin. A RHS collar as a pagri centrepiece I think is unlikely given that Churchill states a number of times LHS collars being chosen for the FSC rather than the ‘wrong’ facing RHS collar, consistent with the orientation of the helmet plate centre piece. Reminiscent of the Queen’s West Surrey RHS pagri shown in the link earlier in this thread. All are 42x42mm.

Thoughts welcome, best regards Dean

[mooke07]

No takers but in discussion with Simon (Manchesters) offline we are of the view they are generic sweetheart badges and opposite facing collar badges would never be worn on headdress. I think Capt Durand labelled the SWB one as a pagri but it isn't sorry it is a sweetheart badge as are the others in this thread and related threads for the Green Howards and West Surrey's IMO.

Cheers Dean

[41st]

Not convinced with that argument for the SWB badge as both that are shown only have lug fittings, neither have had a pin attachment.

[Luke H]

Ditto. Not convinced these are sweethearts.

[denis pannett]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Denis

It could still be as the use of pagri badges seems to have been under regimental arrangements so may have been worn for a short period of overseas service. As there were 2 battalions there is also the option that it was worn as well as the one I show.

If you have not already if you go to https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=118595 this is the type of GH pagri badge in use.

Whilst metal badges were often used in Victorian periods, they fell out of favour and were often replaced by cloth flashes but there was a resurgence in between the wars.

Many thanks Alan, I have emailed the museum and await their reply. Regards, Denis

[eddie]

Originally Posted by mooke07

To add to this most interesting thread. Three of my own. If we follow such a precedent then they are a SWB QVC WM pagri on copper loops as per 41st’s followed by a HLI WM pagri with HLI QVC WM collar (Churchill 1635) brooch pin and a Manchester QVC BM pagri with RHS collar (Churchill 1519) with broken brooch pin. A RHS collar as a pagri centrepiece I think is unlikely given that Churchill states a number of times LHS collars being chosen for the FSC rather than the ‘wrong’ facing RHS collar, consistent with the orientation of the helmet plate centre piece. Reminiscent of the Queen’s West Surrey RHS pagri shown in the link earlier in this thread. All are 42x42mm.

Thoughts welcome, best regards Dean

Hi Dean,
I have seen a photo of the 2nd VBSWB band wearing a dragon wreath badge in their forage caps the same badge that you have shown . I also have this type and a variation with different dragon both W/m with loops.
Photo stain glass window St. George’s Belgium Ypres commemorating the Monmouthshire regiment.
Cheers,
Dave

[mooke07]

I'll gladly accept the rationale perspective especially photographic that the looped SWB badge was not intended as a sweetheart and I would be delighted to have it as a pagri badge.

Does that then follow for the HLI as a pagri badge with a pin fitting and the opposite collar for the Manchesters again with pin fitting? Simon has seen no photographic evidence for such a badge being worn on headdress by the Manchester Regiment. The Manchesters may then be a more likely contender as a sweetheart badge and possibly then the same for the HLI. Any HLI experts seen such a badge?

A very good thread and discussion thanks, cheers Dean

[41st]

Dave,
I’ll be looking at that window again in two weeks time.
Hwyl,
Kevin

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by mooke07

I'll gladly accept the rationale perspective especially photographic that the looped SWB badge was not intended as a sweetheart and I would be delighted to have it as a pagri badge.

Does that then follow for the HLI as a pagri badge with a pin fitting and the opposite collar for the Manchesters again with pin fitting? Simon has seen no photographic evidence for such a badge being worn on headdress by the Manchester Regiment. The Manchesters may then be a more likely contender as a sweetheart badge and possibly then the same for the HLI. Any HLI experts seen such a badge?

A very good thread and discussion thanks, cheers Dean

If it was VB as suggested then it's not a pagri badge but a Field Service Cap badge. An FSC would be quite plausible and likely in the 1890s before the full sized cap badges came into use in the early 1900swith a change in hat design. With the exception of the Boer war reinforcements the VB were not wearing pagris.

Alan

[BROOKIES]

I'm with Eddie (Dave) & Kevin on this one as in it's not a sweetheart brooch (loops and not a pin), it is a cap badge and like Eddie have seen photo of it being worn.

Here is mine along side a regular SWB cap badge for size comparison.

Ta

Jonathan

DSC02018.jpgDSC02019.jpg

[mooke07]

Mine together with FSC badge, seeking a pair of earlier collars Churchill 660 for my Vic post 1881 Infantry OR boards, cheers Dean