Army School of Musketry, have I made an expensive mistake?

[2747andy]

Toby,
I disagree again, genuine badges come from original dies, almost all reproductions come from fake dies!

Andy

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Phil,
I think you have a total fantasy item, the rifles might be original but badges with this large crown are all reproduction items in my honest opinion!

Andy

I have one very similar indeed, lugged for sleeve wear, it was in the Denis Edwards collection pre-1980, when I did a swap. I always took it for a badge of appointment, or just possibly a post 1907 "sergant of best shooting company" to be worn lower right sleeve.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by grumpy

I have one very similar indeed, lugged for sleeve wear, it was in the Denis Edwards collection pre-1980, when I did a swap. I always took it for a badge of appointment, or just possibly a post 1907 "sergant of best shooting company" to be worn lower right sleeve.

I have one too, but mine is a thin, poorly struck piece of crud!

Hence my feeling that similar badges are fantasy! They continue to fool even today!

Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Toby,
I disagree again, genuine badges come from original dies, almost all reproductions come from fake dies!

Andy

You surprise me with that statement. Surely it is well known that when manufacturers of insignia went under, or when badges changed and they wanted to sell off old dies, these were often bought up and then badges 'restruck' or 'reproduced' from them, even though they were obsolete as patterns of a badge, but of interest to 'collectors' of old badges. The most famous example I can think of are the "Fox Re-strikes" of pre-1881 Glengarry badges (from original dies) around the time of the 2nd Anglo/Boer War. Perhaps you are referring to some form of badge collectors 'semantics' that I am genuinely unaware of though.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

I have one too, but mine is a thin, poorly struck piece of crud!

Hence my feeling that similar badges are fantasy! They continue to fool even today!

Andy

yes, horrid!

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Toby,
this is one we'll have to agree to disagree on, I think they are 100% fake! Here are two genuine badges put together, a large WOs crown and crossed rifles, look at the detail on the rifles then compare them to the monstrosity shown in Tom's links, such as the base of the magazines, sights, triggers and guards and the sling fittings, all a 100% knock off!

Andy

I don't understand what you mean by "put together". The genuine arm badges, as opposed to cap badges, were fitted for scarlet felt backing (i.e. with securing lugs). Also they were manufactured from the outset as a one-piece badge and issued as such. As I said before, I have seen B&W photos of these, in wear, at Sch of Musky Hythe.

[grey_green_acorn]

From the Martin Marsh Catalogue c1980 - 1995

390 = The School of Muskertry, Crossed Rifles Large Helmet size. Imperial Crown WM 1902 -1919
391 = The School of Muskertry, Crossed Rifles Large Helmet size. Imperial Crown B 1902 -1919

Tim

Note spelling of Muskertry!

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I don't understand what you mean by "put together". The genuine arm badges, as opposed to cap badges, were fitted for scarlet felt backing (i.e. with securing lugs). Also they were manufactured from the outset as a one-piece badge and issued as such. As I said before, I have seen B&W photos of these, in wear, at Sch of Musky Hythe.

Toby,
with the exception of the Fox PTG's, I refer to post 1900's cap badges, the term "Restrike from Original Dies" is term instigated and perpetuated by less than honest dealers and those who know very little about genuine badges, to add some form of credibility to a reproduction (fake or copy in layman's terms) badge! The only thing IMO post 1900's that comes anything close is the Gaunt B'ham badges (c.1970's) and on close inspection they almost all have slight differences to pre anodised Gaunt productions. Anodised badges began to replace "Metal" in the 1950's, most of the "Metal" dies would have been disposed of or recycled? If anyone honestly believes that 20 years or so later, Gaunt or any other manufacture for that matter, just blew off the cobwebs and started "Restriking" badges then they are seriously deluded and need to take a reality check! Post 1970's restrikes are NOT common and most are, if you want to be posh "Reproduction" if you want to be straight, Fakes and Copies!

The crossed rifles and crown badge which started this thread is IMO a crock of pooh! A fake that has been around that long that even sensible collectors have started to pin hopes on it being possibly correct!


I have been in the SASC museum many times, I have seen the B&W images and I have also handled too many of these "Knock Ups" to think anything other than "Fake" .


Andy

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

From the Martin Marsh Catalogue c1980 - 1995

390 = The School of Muskertry, Crossed Rifles Large Helmet size. Imperial Crown WM 1902 -1919
391 = The School of Muskertry, Crossed Rifles Large Helmet size. Imperial Crown B 1902 -1919

Tim

Tim,
many thanks! I hope others can now start to smell the "Gold Blend" or begin to "Smell the Rats"?...

Things started to happen in 1952, that had not happened for 51 years and that was the crown featured on many British and Commonwealth badges changed and also soon after so did the material they were made from and probably the machinery that was used was modernised (?), no manufacturer would hold onto dies with K.C. when the Military was drastically reduced post war and many new dies were struck which featured the Q.C. prior to the change to anodised. To compound that for the Infantry badges the Brigade system then came along and saw new badges being struck in anodised for almost all of the Regular Infantry! Why oh why would anyone with half a business brain hold onto the dies that bore the Imperial Crown?


Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Toby,
with the exception of the Fox PTG's, I refer to post 1900's cap badges, the term "Restrike from Original Dies" is term instigated and perpetuated by less than honest dealers and those who know very little about genuine badges, to add some form of credibility to a reproduction (fake or copy in layman's terms) badge! The only thing IMO post 1900's that comes anything close is the Gaunt B'ham badges (c.1970's) and on close inspection they almost all have slight differences to pre anodised Gaunt productions. Anodised badges began to replace "Metal" in the 1950's, most of the "Metal" dies would have been disposed of or recycled? If anyone honestly believes that 20 years or so later, Gaunt or any other manufacture for that matter, just blew off the cobwebs and started "Restriking" badges then they are seriously deluded and need to take a reality check! Post 1970's restrikes are NOT common and most are, if you want to be posh "Reproduction" if you want to be straight, Fakes and Copies!

The crossed rifles and crown badge which started this thread is IMO a crock of pooh! A fake that has been around that long that even sensible collectors have started to pin hopes on it being possibly correct!


I have been in the SASC museum many times, I have seen the B&W images and I have also handled too many of these "Knock Ups" to think anything other than "Fake" .


Andy

I fear we are at cross purposes. I made no mention of post 1970s badges, nor of anodised aluminium, nor of whether or not Gaunt made good quality restrikes in the 1980s. I was just responding to your statement implying that no restrikes came from original dies. It is known that some old dies were purchased and then used to restrike badges over the last 100 years. I totally agree with you that far more badges were touted as restrikes from original dies that were nothing of the sort, but merely bad copies, some struck and some cast.
As regards the original posters badge, I also do not disagree that it was not a good badge, I was merely remarking that not all large crown badges for the Sch of Muskry are fake, even though many are. The badges existed, were used under the circumstances I have explained and are not helmet, or cap badges as they are described in the Martin Marsh Catalogue, where they are clearly fake. The white metal variants alone scream that out loud.
You made some very open shut statements that were not 100% true and I was/am not trying to score points, but wish only to state that there are, as so often is the case, some exceptions.
One other thing that puzzles me is if you have seen the B&W photographs that I am referring to (and I don't doubt that you have) then how do you explain the large crowned metal badges worn on the arms of the instructors if such badges are all fakes?

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I fear we are at cross purposes. I made no mention of post 1970s badges, nor of anodised aluminium, nor of whether or not Gaunt made good quality restrikes in the 1980s. I was just responding to your statement that no restrikes came from original dies. It is known that some old dies were purchased and then used to restrike badges over the last 100 years. I totally agree with you that far more badges were touted as restrikes from original dies that were nothing of the sort, but merely bad copies, some struck and some cast.
As regards the original posters badge, I also do not disagree that it was not a good badge, I was merely remarking that not all large crown badges for the Sch of Muskry are fake, even though many are. The badges existed, were used under the circumstances I have explained and are not helmet, or cap badges as they are described in the Martin Marsh Catalogue, where they are clearly fake. The white metal variants alone scream that out loud.
You made some very open shut statements that were not 100% true and I was/am not trying to score points, but wish only to state that there are, as so often is the case, some exceptions.

Toby,
I agree almost 100% - The badge with the ring like pearls to the arms of the crown is FAKE! Arm badges would of had a crown similar to the one I have shown with the standard pattern crossed rifles and the badges with tabs/blades to hold a felt backing are also a fakers knock up!

If I do one thing to add to this hobby, it will be to totally rubbish the phrase "Restrike from an Original Die" WRT post 1890's cap badges!

Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Toby,
I agree almost 100% - The badge with the ring like pearls to the arms of the crown is FAKE! Arm badges would of had a crown similar to the one I have shown with the standard pattern crossed rifles and the badges with tabs/blades to hold a felt backing are also a fakers knock up!

If I do one thing to add to this hobby, it will be to totally rubbish the phrase "Restrike from an Original Die" WRT post 1890's cap badges!

Andy

The large crowned badges for wearing on the arm were fitted with scarlet felt to differentiate them from badges worn on head dress and in an attempt to follow the long standing tradition of such badges when they were made of bullion wire. I think you are wrong in that regard and I would not have made that comment if I had not examined the photos that I mentioned with a x20 linen tester that showed quite clearly that the badges had a felt backing. Those are my findings based on a close study of Sch of Musky insignia. Others can form their own opinions. Genuine badges were made in very small numbers so unfortunately there are zillions of fakes on the market. Nevertheless, amongst some very fortunate (and wealthy) collectors there are also some genuine examples too, complete with felt, or often velvet.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

The large crowned badges for wearing on the arm were fitted with scarlet felt to differentiate them from badges worn on head dress and in an attempt to follow the long standing tradition of such badges when they were made of bullion wire. I think you are wrong in that regard and I would not have made that comment if I had not examined the photos that I mentioned with a x20 linen tester that showed quite clearly that the badges had a felt backing. Those are my findings based on a close study of Sch of Musky insignia. Others can form their own opinions.

Toby,
I don't deny the felt backing, just the fact that the horrid badges with the tabs to hold the felt in place are fantasy items!

Best regards

Andy

[Rockape]

Morning Gents,

An example with a normal sized crown and definitely a one-piece badge.

Regards,

Garry

[2747andy]

Garry,
thanks for that!

Phil,
now can you see why you should take it back!

All the best

Andy