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#1
18-04-08, 06:13 AM
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Anodised Aluminium badges November 1951 list
November 1951 C 4717
Badges Anodised aluminium INTRODUCTION The above-mentioned Badges as detailed in the following table, hitherto made in gilding metal or white metal, will in future be manufactured with aluminium, dyed and anodised in "Gold" or "Silver". Items made of aluminium, processed by anodisation, require no cleaning other than an occasional wipe over with a clean piece of rag (on no account must a brush of any description be used). They can be readily distinguished from gilding metal or white metal badges by their light and shiny appearance. Existing stocks of gilding or white metal badges will be used up. The consequent amendment to the designation of the old pattern badges, viz,. Gilding Metal and amendment to Catalogue will be carried out in the revision of the Section CB, Catalogue of Clothing and Necessaries. Badges Anodised, aluminium CB Bonnet 3336 The Lovat Scouts 3337 Scottish Horse Cap Household Cavalry 3000 W.O. 3001 O.R R.A.C. 3002 L.G. 3004 K.D.G. 3005 The Bays 3006 3rd D.G. 3007 4th|7th D.G. 3008 5th Innis. D.G. 3009 The Royals 3010 The Greys 3011 22nd D. 3012 25th D. 3013 3rd H. 3014 4th H. 3015 7th H. 3016 8th H. 3017 10th H. 3018 11th H. 3019 13th/I8th H. 3020 14th/20th H. 3021 15th/19th H. 3022 23rd H. 3023 26th H. 3024 9th L. 3025 12th L. 3026 16th/5th L. 3027 I7th/21st L. 3028 24th L. 3029 27th L. 3030 North Irish Horse 3031 R.A.C. 3032 R. Tank R. R.A., R.E. and, R. signals R.A. 3033 Large 3034 Small 3035 Royal Horse Artillery 3037 R.E. 3039 R. Signals Foot Guards Gren. Gds. 3046 Serjeants and Bandsmen 3047 R. and F. and Drummers C. Gds. 3049 Serjeants and Bandsmen 3050 R. and F and Drummers S. Gds. 3052 Serjeants and Bandsmen 3053 R, and F. and Drummers I. Gds. 3055 Serjeants and Bandsmen 3056 R. and F. and Drummers W. Gds. 3057 Staff, Serjeants and Bandsmen 3058 R. and F. and Drummers Infantry 3065 Bedfs. and Herts R. 3066 Border R. 3067 Buffs, The 3068 Cheshire R. 3069 D.C.L.I. 3070 Devon R. 3071 Dorset R. 3072 Durham L.I. 3073 D.W.R. 3074 E. Lan. R. 3075 E. Surrey R. 3076 E. York R. 3077 Essex R. 3078 Foresters Gloster R. 3079 Back 3080 Front 3081 Green Howards 3O82 Inniskilling Fus. 3083 King's R. The 3084 King's Own R. 3086 K.O.Y.L.I. 3088 K.S.L.I. 3089 Lan. Fus. 3090 Loyal R. 3091 Manch. R. 3092 Midd'x. R. 3093 North'n, R. 3094 N. Stafford R. 3095 Oxf. and Bucks LI. 3096 Parachute Regt. 3097 P.W. Vols. 3098 Queen's R. The 3099 Reconnaissance Corps 3100 Rifle Bde. 3101 R. Berks R. 3102 R. Fus. 3103 R. Hampshire R. 3104 R. Ir. Fus. 3106 R. Leicestershire R. 3107 R. Lincolnshire R. 3108 R. Norfolk R. 3109 R. North'd. Fus. 3110 R. Sussex R. 3111 R. U. Rif. 3112 R. War. R. 3113 R. W. Fus. 3114 R. W. K. 3115 Somerset L. I. 3116 Stafford R. 3117 Suffolk R. 3118 S. Wales Bord. 3119 Welch R. 3120 Wilts R. 3121 Worc. R. 3122 W. York R. 3123 Y. and L. R. Other Corps 3125 A.C.C. 3126 A.P.T.C. 3124 Army Air Corps 3127 Intelligence Corps 3128 M.P.S.C. 3160 Q.A.R.A.N.C. 3129 R.A.D.C. 3130 R.A.E.C. 3131 R.A.M.C. 3132 R.A.O.C. 3133 R.A.P.C. 3134 R.A.S. C. 3135 R.A.V.C. 3136 R.E.M.E. 3137 R.M. Police 3139 Royal Pioneer Corps 3140 S.A.S.C. 3161 W.R.A.C. Other Services 3145 Army Apprentices School 3146 Army Recruiters 3147 D. of Y. R.M.S. 3141 Glider Pilot Regt. 3148 Messengers 3153 R.H.C. 3149 Royal Arms 3150 Royal Military Academy 3151 R.M. School of Music 3154 Training Battalion U.T.C. 3270 Aberdeen 3271 Aberystwyth 3272 Birmingham 3273 Bristol 3274 Cambridge 3276 Edinburgh 3277 Glasgow 3278 London 3281 Manchester 3282 Nottingham 3283 Oxford 3284 Queen's 3285 Sheffield 3286 Southampton 3287 St. Andrews Overseas Units 3254 Barbados Volunteers 3251 Basutoland 3233 Bechuanaland 3252 Bermuda Volunteer Rifle Corps 3250 British Guiana Bn. 3249 British Honduras Bn. 3255 Cyprus Regt. 3256 Gibraltar Defence Force 3258 Jamaica Local Forces 3257 Jamaica Militia Artillery 3085 K.O.M.R. 3036 Royal Malta Artillery 3038 R.E. Militia Malta Division 3259 St. Helena Rifles 3266 Somaliland Scouts 3260 Swaziland 3261 Trinidad Volunteers 3267 7th Gurkha Rifles 3268 10th Gurkha (P.M.O.) Rifles Territorial Army 3165 Ayrshire Yeomanry 3166 Bedfordshire Yeomanry 3167 Berkshire Yeomanry 3168 Caernarvon and Denbigh Yeomanry 3204 2nd Cav. Div. Signals 3170 City of London Yeomanry (Rough Riders) 3203 2nd County of London Yeomanry (Westminster Dragoons) 3171 3rd County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters) 3172 Derbyshire Yeomanry 3174 Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry 3175 East Riding of Yorkshire Yeomanry 3176 Essex Yeomanry 3177 Fife and Forfar Yeomanry 3178 Glamorgan Yeomanry 3179 Hampshire Yeomanry 3180 Herts Yeomanry 3181 Inns of Court Yeomanry 3182 Lanarkshire Yeomanry 3183 Leicestershire Yeomanry 3184 Lothian and Border Horse 3185 Norfolk Yeomanry 3186 Northamptonshire Yeomanry 3187 Northumberland Hussars 3188 North Somerset Yeomanry 3191 Queen's Own Royal Glasgow Yeomanry 3193 R. Gloucestershire Hussars 3194 R. Wiltshire Yeomanry 3195 Shropshire Yeomanry 3197 Staffordshire Yeomanry 3198 Suffolk Yeomanry 3200 Worcestershire Yeomanry 3202 Yorkshire Hussars 3205 H.A.C. Infy. 3206 R.H.A. 3207 Artists Rifles 3210 Cambs. R. 3212 7th Bn. Foresters 3235 6th Bn. Hampshire R. 3213 Herefordshire L.I. 3214 Herts. R. 3217 8th (Irish) Bn. King's R. 3218 5th Lond. R. 3220 7th Lond. R. 3222 10th Lond. R, 3225 13th Land. R. 3227 17th Lond. R. 3228 18th Lond. R, 3229 19th Lond. R. 3230 20th Lond. R. 3232 23rd Lond. R. 3233 1st Mon. R. 3234 2nd, 3rd and 4th Mon. R. 3237 5th Bn. R. Sussex R. Cap and Hat 3290 1st King's African Rifles 3291 2nd/3rd King's African Rifles 3292 4th King's African Rifles 3293 6th King's African Rifles 3294 1st Northern Rhodesian Regt. Hat 3295 5th King's African Rifles Tarn O'Shanter 3320 A. and S.H. 3321 Black Watch 3322 Cameronians 3323 Camerons 3324 Glasgow Highlanders 3325 Gordons 3326 H.L.I, 3327 K.O.S.B. 3328 Q.V.S. Boys 3329 R. Scots 3330 R.S. Fus. 3331 Seaforth 3332 14th Bn. Lond. R. 3333 Liverpool Scottish 3334 5th Bn. Seaforth 3335 Tyneside Scottish 16th Oct., 1951--54/Vocab./131 Additions to the above C 4717 which was published in February 1955 C 6441 BADGES CAP 3064 P.W. Vols. Large, A.A. 3152 9th County of London Cadet Battalion A.A. 3155 Messengers A.A. (War Office Messengers) 3156 Messengers A.A. (Senior War Office Messengers) 3157 S.A.S. Regt. A.A. (Special Air Service) 3158 War Department Constabulary A.A. (All ranks) 3159 W.D. Fire Service A.A. 3162 Welbeck College A.A. 3163 294 Field Regt. R.A. A.A. (Dorset Yeomanry) 3211 629 L.A.A. Regt. R.A. A.A. (Cambridgeshire Regt) 3173 358 Medium Regt. R.A. Small, A.A. (Suffolk Yeomanry, for berets) 3246 Gurkha, Boys A.A. 3247 10th (Gurkha (P.M.O.) Rifles Small, A.A. 3309 Malay Regiment A.A. 3239 H. A.C. Inf. W.O.s., S/Sgts. and Sgts. A.A. 31st May, 1950--54/Misc./6109 Last edited by 54Bty; 21-05-08 at 04:22 PM. 
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#2
18-04-08, 07:04 AM
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54,
That's great. Where does this come from, it looks like the List of Changes in Materiel etc, (now at the Roy Arm in Leeds) - can you confirm that ? The only problem I have is that I've heard that although there was an intention to produce all of these they didn't actually appear until a few years later. It was QMG trying to make life easier by allocating CB catalogue numbers in advance. I'm not sure they existed until you see actual prices for them in the CCNs. Finally, proof should be in the Sealing Pattern records which will be dated - I know some of the actual SPs (ie actual badges on card) have been sold off but I'm still hoping that the List of Changes will record the date of sealing (must get up to Leeds sometime !) Julian PS the only file on AA that I've found at Kew (WO 32/16956 Anodised Badges - Policy) refers to changes in about 1957 and suggests that not all units had them up. This file largely comprises correspondence etc that led to the production of ACI 249/60.
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#3
18-04-08, 07:13 AM
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It is an exceptionally interesting list but I believe that it does indeed reflect aspirations rather than reality. There are several war-time raised regiments who were long disbanded by 1951 and the badges were clealry never made although authorised. The RTR regimental history does record that they did not ever have a/a K/C badges as they were still using w/m stocks up until well into the 1950s and the first a/a badge they wore was the q/c version.
Alan Last edited by Alan O; 18-04-08 at 07:15 AM.
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#4
18-04-08, 07:37 AM
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It certainly is an interesting list and it goes some way to corroborating the fact that a K/C A/A R.A.S.C. badge existed.A claim made by myself on 20/12/07 in Army Service Corps thread on this forum following the appearance of 2 for sale at a well known auction sale.
Thank you 54Bty. Bantam
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#5
18-04-08, 02:27 PM
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My first posting boys, so hello to all. A fantastic list, but personally I am not interested in a/a badges. However, I was at the Liverpool fair a few weeks ago, and being an ex-apprentice soldier from the 60's (we all wore a/a badges then, both gold an silver), got into a discussion with a dealer about the Army Apprentice School badges, and he insisted that there was a k/c a/a badge issued in 1948! I disputed this but he was insistant and said he had missed buying it, but that it had been sold for £300+! Any comment?
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#7
18-04-08, 04:43 PM
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When I asked about the list (which was published in List of Changes) I was told that the badges had to have been made before the part number could be alocated and the list published. As for those badges that belong to disbanded units the people that deal with the badges do not keep records of who is in and who is out (not even today), so every badge that was in the vocab would have been processed. The date of 16th October 1951 is when the badges entered the vocab which would indicate that they were avaiable to demand by those units that followed the system. The date of 31st May 1950 is the date that most of the badges were sealed.
The list (C4716) before this one is for the introduction of aa buttons, it is twice as long. Not all badges and buttons that come into service are listed in the LofC, during the 1950's a lot of them were published but not all and it did not continue. LofC = List of Changes in War Matériel and Patterns of Military Stores which have been approved and sealed for Land and Air Services. Not badge related but on a visit to Dicot in 1992 I asked why a trial pattern of webbing which had been rejected in 1977 was on an in-service shelf? No one had told them it was obsolete, so I did. Last edited by 54Bty; 18-04-08 at 05:19 PM.
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#8
26-04-08, 08:50 PM
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Additions to C 4717 published in February 1955
C 6441 BADGES CAP P.W. Vols. Large, A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3064) 9th County of London Cadet Battalion A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3152) Messengers A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3155) (War Office Messengers) Messengers A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3156) (Senior War Office Messengers) S.A.S. Regt. A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3157) (Special Air Service) War Department Constabulary A.A. (Cat No. CB 3158) (All ranks) W.D. Fire Service A.A. (Cat. No. (CB 3159) Welbeck College A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3162) 294 Field Regt. R.A. A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3163) (Dorset Yeomanry) 629 L.A.A. Regt. R.A. A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3211) (Cambridgeshire Regt) 358 Medium Regt. R.A. Small, A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3173) (Suffolk Yeomanry, for berets) Gurkha, Boys A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3246) 10th (Gurkha (P.M.O.) Rifles Small, A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3247) Malay Regiment A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3309) H. A.C. Inf. W.O.s., S/Sgts. and Sgts. A.A. (Cat. No. CB 3239)
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#9
21-05-08, 08:18 PM
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Hi Guys,
Looking at this list we see three dates: a) 31st May 1950 when badges were first sealed b) 16th October 1951 when the first badges were made available to units c) November 1950 when document C4717 was published. As such, can we state that the time line start date of Anodised Aluminium badges was (for want of a date milestone) 31st May 1950? Obviously some would have been made pre sealing to allow them to be sealed but would a time line start date of 31st May 1950 be a formal date that we can state that Anodise Aluminium badges were manufactured from? Regards Chris
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#10
21-05-08, 08:38 PM
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Hang on a minute there !!!
I'm just as keen as you are to discover when AA badges appeared, but I don't think the above items prove anything. none of them provide sealing pattern numbers - which are very different from catalogue numbers - the CB numbers. Moreover, as I suggested before, the 4717 document is one of intention, hence the phrase "will in future be manufactured with aluminium".
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#11
22-05-08, 01:12 AM
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Hi Guys,
Post number 7 states three dates one being 31st May 1950 which also has a comment regarding the sealing of Anodised Aluminium badges and to have been sealed they must have been manufactured. Regards Chris Last edited by hagwalther; 22-05-08 at 02:11 AM.
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#12
22-05-08, 06:43 AM
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It's the other way around. The design is finalised, the pattern is sealed and about 10 (figures vary between 6 and 12) are "made" in order to be used as a sample / guide for manufacturers as to what to make ! It is these that are on MoD SP cards (many of which have been sold off) - very different from manufacturers Sample Cards.
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#13
22-05-08, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
So, is it right that at the time of sealing no badges have actually been made? What we need then is the date that the MoD SP cards are made - although the badge would be made before the MoD SP card (and I expect the card to be dated) this would at least give us a formal date when the badge was first acknowledged - does this make sense? Going further, if we can find the first MoD SP card with an anodised aluminium cap badge can we used this as the formal time line start date? Regards Chris
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#14
22-05-08, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Although badges were sealed and catalogued vast quantitys do not have to be made for the stores as old stocks are to be used up first. In answer to the abve post from Chris; the process is started with a sample that is then passed round the relevant people, this includes the end user. When all are agreed that this is what is required it is used as the Prototype for the pattern and in some cases becomes a master pattern, I am not sure how many badges are made but at least 15 were required 5 as masters and 10 as standard patterns. The pattern will not help with how many were made or how many were issued; they record the following information; pattern number, catalogue number and later the NSN, the catalogue description of the item, the authority file number for the item, the date it was sealed (not always there), some times the signature of the person responsible for the pattern and on the back who made them and when. Not all this information is on every card or label, again not every badge gets a sealed pattern if a previous pattern exists it is sometime marked 'to guide for anodised aluminium Cat No' or 'Crown to be St. Edward's. Some of the older Master Patterns have a prototype label that also records the date it was approved by; The Chief Inspector of Clothing, the user, and also for production, the prototype authority (file reference),and proposed designation. The badge is fixed to the card by a piece of cloth tape which is passed through the card and SEALED on the back with wax and the seal of the Chief Inspector with the shield from the board or ordnance or the Royal Arms. For those of us who have a badge with a hole in the end of the shank or near the top of the shank, then we have a badge that has been made exactly to the pattern, as the hole is for the cloth tape or it is an obsolete pattern. On the more recent patterns the information is on a label and the item secured to it by nylon cord and an MoD metal seal. Any use? Last edited by 54Bty; 22-05-08 at 06:37 PM.
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#15
27-05-08, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
All very interesting stuff. We are though still missing dates - do any of these items have dates on them? Regards Chris
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