Brexit

[BWEF]

Originally Posted by Charliedog012012

When you are offered hope then you will reach out and strive to achieve
When you are denied hope you reach out and make your voice heard
When your voice is ignored then you will fight back

The above was the response of a North East Steelworker (now unemployed) when asked why there was such a large majority for LEAVE option.
MR Corbyn chooses to ignore their voice........and unlike those demonstrating in London, those in the North East are not a mouthpiece for rentamob.As one woman said, 'when you have nothing, what have you got to lose'

What have you got to lose? Well, the United Kingdom for a start.

This being said, although I agree that the way that politicians of all stripe have lost contact with the British people and needed a good kick up the rear end, this is what my old grandma used to call "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

Not forgetting the years of uncertainty and financial loss for whatever is left of the UK, and the discontent from near half of the country.

That amount of our people can hardly be "a mouthpiece for rentamob". It is genuine discontent, and with good reason.

Although I hesitate to quote a proven liar, most recently over the money that could go to the NHS instead of Europe, Nigel Farage not too long ago called for a second referendum in the event of the result being this close:

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/rememb...endum-5963900/

[BWEF]

Originally Posted by bewley

What a joke!
On Friday morning the BBC reverted to its left wing bias with a vengeance. Nearly crashed the car when some pompous professor declared it was 'victory of ignorance over education'.

What left wing bias?

[BWEF]

Originally Posted by bewley

Do you really believe all the tut you have been putting on here the last few days?
Or are you just a very determined wind-up merchant?

Do you really believe the rubbish you have swallowed about leaving the EU being the answer to all your problems?

If so, I have some magic beans that you might be interested in buying.

Much of what you have been told are outright lies. For example, our borders are secure. We have (had?) an agreement with the French who stopped people the other side of the channel. Why would people be living in squatters camps outside Calais and trying to sneak in to the UK in the back of lorries and in kayaks if our borders were open?

I think you will find that getting on for half the country believe the tut that I have been putting on here. The thing about this forum is that most badge collectors tend to be older, many ex forces etc.

Now, in my yoghurt knitting forum it would be you that is the odd one out.

[Charliedog012012]

Originally Posted by BWEF

What have you got to lose? Well, the United Kingdom for a start.

This being said, although I agree that the way that politicians of all stripe have lost contact with the British people and needed a good kick up the rear end, this is what my old grandma used to call "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

Not forgetting the years of uncertainty and financial loss for whatever is left of the UK, and the discontent from near half of the country.

That amount of our people can hardly be "a mouthpiece for rentamob". It is genuine discontent, and with good reason.

Although I hesitate to quote a proven liar, most recently over the money that could go to the NHS instead of Europe, Nigel Farage not too long ago called for a second referendum in the event of the result being this close:

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/rememb...endum-5963900/

Well, let us say that in the North East many people feel that they do not belong to the UK .......they see austerity but no investment. The Prime Minister thinks Nissan is either near Newcastle or the Tees....it is near Sunderland. He cannot tell us whether the Tyne is the Tees or not. His answer to the deprivation is Nissan and thinks that justifies the total lack of concern for or lack of investment in this area. His minister had to apologise after calling this area the barren wasteland which should be left to die. When he realised the outrage that he had caused, he tried to say that he had mixed up the North East with the North West! ( they were not too happy about that either) I see people up here in absolute despair....no jobs, no hope, no future and one of the most deprived housing estates in Europe less than 5 miles away from where I write... lose the UK? When you do not feel that you belong in the UK why worry about losing the UK. The point is this.....the politicians did not listen to the people ......and stiil will not listen. The North East were not expressing frustration...they were sending a message of seismic proportions to London.

[BWEF]

Originally Posted by Charliedog012012

Well, let us say that in the North East many people feel that they do not belong to the UK .......they see austerity but no investment. The Prime Minister thinks Nissan is either near Newcastle or the Tees....it is near Sunderland. He cannot tell us whether the Tyne is the Tees or not. His answer to the deprivation is Nissan and thinks that justifies the total lack of concern for or lack of investment in this area. His minister had to apologise after calling this area the barren wasteland which should be left to die. When he realised the outrage that he had caused, he tried to say that he had mixed up the North East with the North West! ( they were not too happy about that either) I see people up here in absolute despair....no jobs, no hope, no future and one of the most deprived housing estates in Europe less than 5 miles away from where I write... lose the UK? When you do not feel that you belong in the UK why worry about losing the UK. The point is this.....the politicians did not listen to the people ......and stiil will not listen. The North East were not expressing frustration...they were sending a message of seismic proportions to London.

I agree with all that you say about the way that our former industrial heartland has been neglected. It is a complete disgrace. It is shameful and politicians of every party should be called to account.

Where I would tke issue with you is this. What good will leaving the EU do you? Firstly, our economy will shrink, leaving less money to spend and, more importantly, you mention Nissan, which is near Sunderland.

If at the end of the negotiations there are tariff barriers imposed Nissan will probably be near Gdansk. Far eastern capital is where it is to make a profit, it owes no loyalty to this country and will cut and run for Poland or wherever at the drop of a hat.

Even in the case of London they are expecting foreign banks and finance houses to relocate behind the EU borders.

Some, a minority at present, are calling for London to leave the UK and stay in the EU.

Your solution is to leave the EU. I hope that that works out for you, I really do, but I wouldn't put any money on it.

Maybe the north east can join up with an independent Scotland? Although it was rather a long time ago Newcastle, it is said, was once the capital of Scotland:

https://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/201...tland-1138-57/

[Charliedog012012]

I will say that I respect your position and your arguments. You have stated your case in a thorough and educated way and consequently they make a refreshing difference from the recycled and biased arguments that have been delivered by politicians on both sides of the debate. It is true to say however that in this instance people have voted with their hearts rightly or wrongly and on both sides I am sure that they have done it for a love of their country. It is true also, as one commentator put, people will vote according to their circumstance and who am I to criticise them for that.

[Jim Maclean]

Ever since the result I've wondered what the age group breakdown of the 28% that didn't vote is.
I also wonder what the outcome would have been had they even bothered to give their opinion. As it was the outcome was decided by those that bothered. I think it has something to do with the will of the majority.

[Charlie 585]

BWEF

I had considered contacting you via PM to express the points I make below rather than continue to post in this thread but I will instead attempt to use it to bow out of the thread: Below is the message that I was going to send you:

Dear BWEF,

I just wanted to say, that having decided to refrain from making further comment in the hotly debated topic of Brexit in the current thread which seems to me to be at the point where it is at risk of going round in circles, that I have enjoyed the spirited defence that you have displayed in expressing your position on the matter. Without wishing to appear condescending or patronising at all I would like to add that I have admired your tenacity, calmness and diplomacy which do you great credit even if in this case I am not inclined to agree with your position on many aspects of the debate.

I am sure that there are those amongst us here that do share your viewpoint but are reluctant to state their views publicly, for which they can be forgiven. If for nothing else, I would like to thank you for giving some of us the opportunity to vent our spleens when for some there may be no other viable outlet for doing so amongst those who are able to argue in a civilised manner.

I do detect an element of irony in your stance due to the fact that you seem to represent a lone voice in a sea of hostility, which is how many of us view the standpoint of our country, or at least those of us who have over time been left feeling shall I say, disenfranchised, by our membership of the EU.

I don’t concede to your arguments but do respect your views and even more so the way you have remained loyal to them and stated your case. I am of the opinion that in the wider picture that there have been many untruths and much spin evident in the run up to the vote which I see as a consequence of what has been a dirty campaign of tit for tat scare mongering from both sides and view this with disappointment though regard it as understandable due to the emotive and serious nature of the referendum. You are a gentleman sir and you have in this matter, my admiration.

I like you am not of the younger generation but I do have children both grown up and of primary school age as well as grandchildren whose future figured heavily in my deliberations and having voted out, I, and my conscience will have to live with the consequences of the withdrawal from the EU in the hope that I have done right by them with my vote.

So, I ask please don’t be too hard on our generation as unlike those younger than us we bring to the equation life experience and the responsibility of parenthood and all that this entails as well as calm consideration of the facts as we see them regardless of the lies and spin that I mentioned and our final decision in many, many, cases has been given long and careful consideration which I know from my own experience is sometimes through no fault of their own not evident in the hearts and minds and decision making process of the younger generations, of whom I have fairly broad experience, gained from both service, civilian and family life.

The one factor that overrides mine, yours, and the views of all who have contributed to this discussion is very fact that we are able to have this debate at all and I live in hope that the freedom of expression that allows us to do so will still be firmly in place when those younger generations have reached our age group after having lived in a free, democratic and fair society whilst making that journey. One day they may even thank our generation for the decisions that we made on their behalf by our concerted vote in the matter at hand.

I offer no further argument, only time will tell if we have done the right thing.

Kind regards
Ry

[Jibba Jabba]

[REMEVMBEA1]

Originally Posted by Charliedog012012

Well, let us say that in the North East many people feel that they do not belong to the UK .......they see austerity but no investment. The Prime Minister thinks Nissan is either near Newcastle or the Tees....it is near Sunderland. He cannot tell us whether the Tyne is the Tees or not. His answer to the deprivation is Nissan and thinks that justifies the total lack of concern for or lack of investment in this area. His minister had to apologise after calling this area the barren wasteland which should be left to die. When he realised the outrage that he had caused, he tried to say that he had mixed up the North East with the North West! ( they were not too happy about that either) I see people up here in absolute despair....no jobs, no hope, no future and one of the most deprived housing estates in Europe less than 5 miles away from where I write... lose the UK? When you do not feel that you belong in the UK why worry about losing the UK. The point is this.....the politicians did not listen to the people ......and stiil will not listen. The North East were not expressing frustration...they were sending a message of seismic proportions to London.

The referendum was not about party politics and the people who voted out were as well informed as those who voted to remain , your attack on Cameron's lack of knowledge of the North East could just as easily have been aimed at Corbyn , or many of the Labour MPs who , allegedly, represent NE constituencies. To all those who voted to remain , I voted out fully in the knowledge that it wasn't going to be a cakewalk but having sufficient faith in the British people to know that we can overcome any difficulties as we have done in the past.

[Charliedog012012]

I could not agree more!

[GriffMJ]

Our Parliament, now, has nowhere to hide Our vote really counts ... I am looking forward to the next general election..... that I hope is called sooner rather than later.

The new manifesto(s) will be worth reading now

[ubervamp]

I see from the news reports that many seem to view the result as a permission for xenophobic and racist behaviour, with hundreds of incidents reported over the last couple of days all over the UK. Very sad, indeed.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by ubervamp

I see from the news reports that many seem to view the result as a permission for xenophobic and racist behaviour, with hundreds of incidents reported over the last couple of days all over the UK. Very sad, indeed.

Its going to happen.... it would have happened if "remain" won. The thugs from both sides will be equally involved..... lets hope the authorities get a grip of it quickly.

[Charlie 585]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Its going to happen.... it would have happened if "remain" won. The thugs from both sides will be equally involved..... lets hope the authorities get a grip of it quickly.

I fear that you are right Griff and although I had wished to refrain from further comment, given recent reports I am truly concerned that this is the start of something much bigger:

And so the backlash begins.

Did any of us that voted out ever really believe that due democratic process would prevail if we were successful in winning the EU referendum?

Today some two short days after the result was announced the forces of the remain side seem to be gathering strength and are it seems confident that the result of the referendum is, if they have their way, to be ignored.

The labour party is in turmoil as I write with the wish it seems to return the party leadership to the Blairite fold thus going back to the default position that took over their party and which remains it seems entrenched in an anti-democratic federalist cause in line with those who presently hold the reins of power in Europe.

The conservative party are in no less of a catastrophic state and offer little by way of comfort to those who view themselves as traditional true blue voters and even less by way of real opposition to the current march of federalist dissent.

They are it seems as many of us have known for some time all in the same club. A club which supports what is nothing less than a continent wide dictatorship, intent on ruling us all under the yoke of their despotic system of government whilst anyone in opposition to this agenda is simply smeared as a racist or side-lined, as has been the case with those in our country who dared to make a stand and is now seemingly being rolled out wholesale by their refusal to accept the democratic mandate of the population who voted in favour of Brexit.

We have witnessed a clever tactical moved by our prime minister who has employed a stalling block which prevents any real action in the short term, this being the requirement to invoke article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, thus leaving a chink that has quickly been exploited and now appears to be fast becoming a large festering sore, infected by those whose aim is nothing less to scupper the democratic process.

In Europe though we have calls for us to get on with it so that we can be quickly and publicly punished and held up as a deterrent to those other countries whose populations have woken up to the fact that they live in a dictatorship and want out.

Where does this leave us, a worrying question to which the answers may be too fearful to consider for many.

We have marchers on the streets of London in protest of the result of the democratic process whilst it seems at the other end of the scale we have instances of the breakdown of public order in the form of racist attacks form those on the extremes of the right. This I fear as we will go on to see may be merely the tip of the iceberg.

Should the vote to leave the EU be ignored or worse still reversed I can only imagine the dire consequences of the back lash that is surely to follow. The Genie as they say is well and truly out of the bottle.

We face much uncertainty and potential turmoil, not least due to the fact that our choices of leadership on both sides of the usual political fence leave us with very little choice for change, real change, effective change that is desired and required by those of us who see through the mendacity of the collective stance of the British political elite.

I fear that the only realistic option would be to call for the dissolution of parliament and the placing of the country into emergency measures for a term in order to shake the very life out of the current establishment and replace it with a system of true democracy, not one that sees the British public being stitched up by members of the same club albeit under the cloak of their respective colours.

This though would mean yet more delay in regard to the urgent matter at hand which boils down to the question of our sovereignty which is the thing that is really at risk here, let alone some of our other honoured traditions.

It is shame that in a constitutional monarchy our Royal Family seem to have no ultimate say on the question of our independence, they are though not our real rulers which in some ways is a shame, though I suspect that many of us don’t actually know where they stand in this matter given that they are derided by the dissenters if they speak publicly at all during such times of turmoil and on the other hand there has been a loss of faith in their perceived stance as upholders of our country’s institutions which have as we know been watered down, an example being that the monarch in this case our beloved Queen is no longer the defender of our country’s faith, instead being now defender of the faiths, which in reality equates to defender of no faith at all, or our traditions and history.

I feel and fear that this may all end very badly for us here in Great Britain and that one way or another we have become involved in a struggle that may turn very ugly. A shame as that might be it is a struggle may prove necessary if we are to come out the other side with some form of democracy intact. Whether that sees us as an independent nation or indeed a United Kingdom, or not, remains to be seen.
Dark forces are mobilising both within and without so pay attention and be ready for anything, as, if nothing else, things it seems may be about to get very interesting, indeed!

Hopefully my last ramble in this thread.

Ry