HELP WITH ROYAL MARINES BADGE APPRECIATED

[mjw]

Hello Ray.

Many thanks for the helpful reply. The gilt wreath and circulet seems to have been made in one piece. It measures 55 x 50 mm. The globe has a slight rim which fits the centre perfectly. The lugs on the reverse are pierced for fixing pins. It seems as something was fixed to the top. The title Gibraltar?

Perhaps this is too large for a sweetheart badge?

Kind regards, Malcolm.

[Ray6930]

The multiple holed posts around the back certainly look like fixing points to put it in the middle of a helmet plate
There might have been another of those posts at the top perhaps
Possibly too big for a sweetheart although there have been a few I have seen that were almost that size
Paddy’s previous input might be a good suggestion as to origins of the piece and it would be really nice to think it might be a previously unknown type of glengarry badge
I would gladly put it in one of my cases as an oddity and am sure Paddy would be happy to have it in his collection too
Whatever it turns out to be it’s a nice find
Ray

[mjw]

Ray.

Many thanks for this. Much appreciated.

Kind regards, Malcolm.

[Paddy]

Malcolm

I have attached a few pictures below and included a bit of extra information which may be helpful but I will admit it does not answer your questions but I can take my own guess at what the badge may have been used for.

The first picture is the 1856 - 1866 (approx) Officer's Shako. The second picture is the (approx) 1866 - 1878 Officer's Shako which replaced the 1856 Shako.

On the 1856 Shako the centre overlay is approx 57.25mm wide and 53.5mm tall. The globe is approx 23.25mm in diameter and is a different pattern to the one in your badge. The majority of this pattern badge I have seen tend to have the same globe as my Shako although there is one example shown in John Rawlinson's Personal Distinctions book that has a globe similar to yours. The globe in yours is also very similar in pattern and size to the globe on the 1845 Shako (the globes on RM Officer's Shakos/Helmet Plates differ a lot over the ages and if you find a globe on it's own you have a good chance of narrowing down it's period of use by comparing the pictures).

If you look at my 1856 Shako you will see that the globe is quite small in comparison to the inner ring of the circlet, again this is the most common type I have seen. The globe in your badge fills the whole of the inner circlet and it also looks like it has been splayed outwards around the rim which I believe could be to aid it's retention in the circlet.

If you look at the back of the overlay you will see that it was retained on the main backing plate by 2 lugs (E/W) whereas your badge has 3 lugs but this could just be a maker's variation. The brooch pin would have been fitted afterwards.

The 1866 Shako has a completely different overlay, a smaller inner ring. The Per Mare Per Terram is pierced and a blue enamel disc is placed behind the circlet.

There are versions of the overlay with bugle horn fitted on the top purporting to be Officer's Glengarry badges but John states in his book that it is uncertain whether these were ever worn as glengarries or whether they were made for a different purpose. He has a black and white picture of 3 of these from the Royal Marines Museum in his book. I have attached pictures of 2 of them as I was fortunate enough to be able to take pictures of some of their collection about 12 years ago. The ones on the white background are the RM Museum badges, they informed me at the time that they believed the one with the lion and crown on top was a trial badge. I have attached pictures (on the red background) of the 2 that I have, one with bugle horn and the other without.

In John's book it states that the glengarry cap for officers was only introduced in 1880 and removed from use in 1896 so it was only introduced approx 14 years after the first Shako I pictured was removed from wear and approx 2 years after the 2nd Shako I pictured was removed from wear. I guess there would have been quite a few of these Shakos lying around in stores or elsewhere so it seems natural that they could have been put to use either as a glengarry badge or something else.

My own personal opinion on your badge (and I have nothing to base it on apart from gut instinct) is that someone has put it together to form an officer's glengarry in the same way as the overlay parts of the 1866 - 1878 Shako parts were put together. I believe the solder mark at the top was originally there to hold a bugle horn on the top. When this was done is anyone's guess as is the intended purpose.

Paddy

[mjw]

Hello Paddy.

What can I say but "Thank You" for such an informative and reasoned reply. I would I be surprised if anything else can be added!

Once again, many thanks for all your help. Its greatly appreciated.

Kind regards, Malcolm

[1664]

I think Paddy has nailed what this is, the surround is from an 1856 officers helmet plate, the globe looks a little bit larger than the 1856 pattern so I wonder if it’s from the 1845 pattern. It’s not later, the design of the globes gets smaller and then the shape and detail changes on the 1878 plate.

What was it done for, probably as a brooch, I’ve seen a few made up from parts, the most famous being in amongst Halliday VC’s kit that sold in auction ten years or so ago.

Is it a glengarry badge? I doubt it, too early and they had plenty of the 1866 plates around to use, whilst photos of officers wearing glengarrys are rare they exist, and I’ve not seen one wearing this badge. Was it used as an earlier cap badge? Possibly, but the fixing would be a bit odd for that, they were sewn on. See the two attached images, both of which are new to my collection since Personal Distinctions was published.

Regardless, even though we’re not certain of what it is, it is a very nice, early, honest badge… that I suspect many of us would be pleased to have.

Yours
John

[mjw]

Hello John.

Many thanks for the informative post.

My own observation are the globe seems to fit perfectly the centre of the gilt surround, even including a small lip that stops it passing through. I assume the pin fixture is a later addition. As to the idea it was intended as a brooch. Well possibly, but it seems a bit large?

I agree that whatever it is it’s a nice item.

Kind regards, Malcolm.

[1664]

“the globe seems to fit perfectly the centre of the gilt surround“
Malcolm, it shouldn’t, on the six 1856 plates I’ve seen, the globe is a few mm smaller than the gap, you can see this on Paddy’s example

[mjw]

Hello John.

Seems I have Frankenstein’s monster!

Kind regards, Malcolm.

[1664]

It’s a lovely honest thing. I wouldn’t change it at all, as much as the offset globe is irritating.