Cast / Theatre-made Badges

[Jelly Terror]

I sometimes wonder about cast/theatre-made badges, in that whilst many are clearly taken from impressions of 'known' badges, others (such as the example pictured below) do not appear to have a specific 'parent' badge in the world beyond cast/theatre-made manufacture.

The pattern variation shown here falls beyond the parameters of the established/recorded QRWS variants that I am familiar with. I have been unable to find a matching example in the factory-produced realm that might have served as the original for this lamb.

Did Indian/Egyptian etc., badge makers generally exercise liberal amounts of artistic licence when casting; merging and mingling and making mongrels, the origins of which sometimes seem too dilute to trace?

I am wondering if members who collect the badges of other units have noticed such anomalies within their chosen areas of specialisation?

Regards,

JT

O7a.jpgO7b.jpg

[Home Guard]

JT, I cannot shed any light on the subject, but what strikes me about your badge is that it seems very nicely made and not the usual crude made theater badge.

I look forward to seeing what others have to say.

Terry

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Home Guard

JT, I cannot shed any light on the subject, but what strikes me about your badge is that it seems very nicely made and not the usual crude made theater badge.

I look forward to seeing what others have to say.

Terry

Thanks Terry.

I do have one other example of this pattern (for want of a better term), though it is much cruder. It is the only other one I have ever encountered. Will post in due course.

Regards,

JT

[dumdum]

True or not, I was told that these theatre cast made examples were produced to make up shortages in lost badges. Also believe that anyone who "lost" (i.e. swapped/ sold/ bartered) a badge could obtain one of these and avoid paying a kit deficiency.

Having said that, I have somewhere a copy of a catalogue from the 1970's from the firm of Azam Katak (?) & Co of Lahore, Pakistan that lists pages of badges available. I recall that there is a note to the effect that the catalogue should be placed prominently in the regimental mess.

They could also make any badge to order....

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by dumdum

True or not, I was told that these theatre cast made examples were produced to make up shortages in lost badges. Also believe that anyone who "lost" (i.e. swapped/ sold/ bartered) a badge could obtain one of these and avoid paying a kit deficiency.

Having said that, I have somewhere a copy of a catalogue from the 1970's from the firm of Azam Katak (?) & Co of Lahore, Pakistan that lists pages of badges available. I recall that there is a note to the effect that the catalogue should be placed prominently in the regimental mess.

They could also make any badge to order....

Thanks, DD.

If you manage to find the catalogue, perhaps you’d be kind enough to post it on the forum? I’d love to have look.

Regards,

JT

[Nozzer]

Morning Terror,

Have a look here;

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...p?albumid=4318

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Nozzer

Morning Terror,

Have a look here;

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...p?albumid=4318

Mr. Nozzer, sir. Good morning. How the devil are you?

Thanks for the link.

A slight digression here on my part, but might the badges produced by these manufacturers be considered fakes?

As for the initial angle of my OP, are the badges depicted in Tim’s album taken from impressions original ‘official’ badges, or are they the casters’ own interpretations, as I believe my Queen’s badge to be? I’m not familiar enough with each of the units in Tim’s album to judge.

Cheers,

JT

[dumdum]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Thanks, DD.

If you manage to find the catalogue, perhaps you’d be kind enough to post it on the forum? I’d love to have look.

Regards,

JT

Hi JT

Of course! It "surfaced" some time ago and then went into hiding again. I'm not a badge collector per se but I thought it was "a bit of a larf" as Father Ted would say.

Mostly British badges but also some Commonwealth stuff and a lot were the type of stuff that you would think would be so common it wouldn't be worth doing....

[grey_green_acorn]

I have set up two albums showing badges produced by M AZAM & SONS of Lahore, Pakistan.

I own a number of the badges and other images are from Forum members’ collections. I have two catalogues from the early 1970s.

In terms of badges produced from the late 1960s, it seems likely that Regiments and Corps sent examples and ordered badges to be made for regimental bands and corps of drums which were not available from official sources.

The quality is variable but they are readily recognisable as at best ‘copies’. The flat lugs with a smallish hole for the split pin are a good indicator.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...p?albumid=4318

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...p?albumid=4320

I can scan more pages from the catalogues if needed.

Tim

[KLR]

I posted two Indian made KLR badges somewhere........

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by dumdum

Hi JT

Of course! It "surfaced" some time ago and then went into hiding again. I'm not a badge collector per se but I thought it was "a bit of a larf" as Father Ted would say.

Mostly British badges but also some Commonwealth stuff and a lot were the type of stuff that you would think would be so common it wouldn't be worth doing....

Thanks again, DD.

JT

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

I have set up two albums showing badges produced by M AZAM & SONS of Lahore, Pakistan.

I own a number of the badges and other images are from Forum members’ collections. I have two catalogues from the early 1970s.

In terms of badges produced from the late 1960s, it seems likely that Regiments and Corps sent examples and ordered badges to be made for regimental bands and corps of drums which were not available from official sources.

The quality is variable but they are readily recognisable as at best ‘copies’. The flat lugs with a smallish hole for the split pin are a good indicator.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...p?albumid=4318

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...p?albumid=4320

I can scan more pages from the catalogues if needed.

Tim

Nice one, Tim. Thank you.

Whilst I acknowledge your album displays relatively modern badges, if you do happen to stumble across any pre-1924 Queen’s examples, I’d be very interested to see them.

Having been commissioned, as it were, and supplied with original/parent models from which to cast badges, these manufacturers had no reason to invent or create their own versions, of course. It’s a fascinating subject where the line between fake, copy, official etc., is not particularly well-defined. I suppose it’s all a matter of opinion and of collectors’ choice/preference as to what constitutes a ‘real’ badge.

If I make a raft of badges in my garden shed and they are worn by serving personnel, are they (sorry for the weak term) ‘real’?

Great stuff.

JT

Originally Posted by KLR

I posted two Indian made KLR badges somewhere........

Julian,

Are these cast from known, recognisable KLR variants, or (as speculated) the casters’ own interpretations?

JT

[grey_green_acorn]

I also have a small selection of ‘older’ cast/theatre made badges in my album
https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...p?albumid=3882

Includes a fairly nasty example of the pre 1926 King’s Liverpool regiment cap badge.

Tim

[KLR]

interesting that these two (fairly "nasty") are based on Pattern 4362A/1896


(the two "nasties" I posted a while ago were based on good badges Pattern 10042/1926)

[cbuehler]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

I sometimes wonder about cast/theatre-made badges, in that whilst many are clearly taken from impressions of 'known' badges, others (such as the example pictured below) do not appear to have a specific 'parent' badge in the world beyond cast/theatre-made manufacture.

The pattern variation shown here falls beyond the parameters of the established/recorded QRWS variants that I am familiar with. I have been unable to find a matching example in the factory-produced realm that might have served as the original for this lamb.

Did Indian/Egyptian etc., badge makers generally exercise liberal amounts of artistic licence when casting; merging and mingling and making mongrels, the origins of which sometimes seem too dilute to trace?

I am wondering if members who collect the badges of other units have noticed such anomalies within their chosen areas of specialisation?

Regards,

JT

Attachment 279193Attachment 279194

The reason this does not have a "parent" badge is because it is a British made officer's badge, not theatre or Indian made at all.
The quality may not be the greatest I have seen, but it is still a nice silver and gilt badge. Officers badges were all privately purchased from many makers, both large and small, including local jewellers.
As such, they have nothing to do with OR sealed pattern badges and reflect the makers variations and quality.

CB

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

The reason this does not have a "parent" badge is because it is a British made officer's badge, not theatre or Indian made at all.
The quality may not be the greatest I have seen, but it is still a nice silver and gilt badge. Officers badges were all privately purchased from many makers, both large and small, including local jewellers.
As such, they have nothing to do with OR sealed pattern badges and reflect the makers variations and quality.

CB

Excellent stuff CB! Would you be able to provide the source of this info, please? This is exactly what I’m looking for.

Cheers,

JT