Loyal Regiment black rank insignia

[jf42]

Greetings, I recently came upon a reference in on-line chat to the Loyal Regiment having a black component in their rank insignia, kept to perpetuate the black thread in their regimental 'lace,' (supposedly added to commemorate Wolfe's death at Quebec).

Does this have any basis in fact (not the regimental lace but the later insignia)?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by jf42

Greetings, I recently came upon a reference in on-line chat to the Loyal Regiment having a black component in their rank insignia, kept to perpetuate the black thread in their regimental 'lace,' (supposedly added to commemorate Wolfe's death at Quebec).

Does this have any basis in fact (not the regimental lace but the later insignia)?

Yes it’s true and the Loyals were one of four infantry regiments that observed that tradition, which is now all but forgotten. All those regiments served under Wolfe’s command at the Battle of the Plains of Abraham at Quebec. They were the 15th (East Yorks), 17th (Leicestershire), 31st (East Surrey), and 47th (Loyals). Originally this was reflected via a black worm (thread) in each regiment’s special coatee lace (worn by rank and file), but in later years just the officers maintained the tradition via either, a black thread woven into the twisted gilt cords worn as shoulder straps and bearing rank badges (modern day blue patrols), or in the gold lace decoration of collars and cuffs (final pattern full dress - see below).

NB. At least one, possibly two successor regiments still observe the tradition via twisted gold shoulder cords with black worm.
Image shows mess dress jacket cords of Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment as successor to the Loyals. The other is I believe the Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment as successors to the East Surrey’s.

[jf42]

Ah, thanks Toby. That makes more sense. The inference seemed to be that the 47th had black rank insignia as worn by rifle regiments which seemed odd, but I see now the author's description that the 47th in the 1890s "wore black rank badges but they were not a rifle regiment" was a touch misleading.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by jf42

Ah, thanks Toby. That makes more sense. The inference seemed to be that the 47th had black rank insignia as worn by rifle regiments which seemed odd, but I see now the author's description that the 47th in the 1890s "wore black rank badges but they were not a rifle regiment" was a touch misleading.

Hello JF, my old VWF associate, I’m glad you found it helpful. Yes, that’s a very misleading statement and can only be a misunderstanding.
Best wishes as ever,
Bob

[GriffMJ]

....I saw the black in the Royal Anglian shoulders boards when I was in the 7th (V) Battalion R.Ang. Thats when I found out about why it was worn..... I seem to remember that part of our toast was an acknowledgment to Gen. Wolf? (long time ago... memory is failing)

[cbuehler]

Must not forget the Gordons also sported the black line on officer full dress tunics and black buttons on the spats of all ranks in memory of Sir John Moore.

CB

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

....I saw the black in the Royal Anglian shoulders boards when I was in the 7th (V) Battalion R.Ang. Thats when I found out about why it was worn..... I seem to remember that part of our toast was an acknowledgment to Gen. Wolf? (long time ago... memory is failing)

I’ve been trying to ascertain if all of the successor regiments have maintained the tradition, but so far without reaching a confident conclusion. The infantry has been so badly cut that trying to maintain the so-called golden thread of lineage has proven increasingly difficult and not all traditions have been possible to maintain.

There are two books listing most of these traditions that can usually be found pre owned online at little cost. One by Arthur Taylor and one by Ian F W Beckett. Both have been republished a few times I think.

[jf42]

Greetings again, Bob. ( I drafted a reply days ago but it disappeared into the ether).

Curiously, only the 15th and the 47th were actually at Quebec. The 17th were 'in theatre,' notably at Louisburg in 1758, but were not part of Maj Gen Wolfe's command when he died. I don't quite know how the 31st got involved.

Lt. Col. John Hale (47th) carried dispatches from Canada, with news of the victory at Quebec and the death of Wolfe. He later formed the 17th Light Dragoons and it was said the 'Motto' on their helmet caps of a death's head and the words 'Or Glory' commemorated this connection.

As far Sir John Moore was concerned, The 42nd RH alone seem to have had the honour of carrying the general from the field after he was mortally wounded However, both the 92nd Highlanders and the 9th East Norfolks claimed to have attended his burial in the ramparts of Coruña. In addition to the distinctions mentioned above, I believe the black tombstone badge-backing on the Royal Norfolk [?officers] khaki beret was said to commemorate the episode. Likewise, I believe 1st Royal Anglian drummers have black bugle cords.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by jf42

Greetings again, Bob. ( I drafted a reply days ago but it disappeared into the ether).

Curiously, only the 15th and the 47th were actually at Quebec. The 17th were 'in theatre,' notably at Louisburg in 1758, but were not part of Maj Gen Wolfe's command when he died. I don't quite know how the 31st got involved.

Lt. Col. John Hale (47th) carried dispatches from Canada, with news of the victory at Quebec and the death of Wolfe. He later formed the 17th Light Dragoons and it was said the 'Motto' on their helmet caps of a death's head and the words 'Or Glory' commemorated this connection.

As far Sir John Moore was concerned, The 42nd RH alone seem to have had the honour of carrying the general from the field after he was mortally wounded However, both the 92nd Highlanders and the 9th East Norfolks claimed to have attended his burial in the ramparts of Coruña. In addition to the distinctions mentioned above, I believe the black tombstone badge-backing on the Royal Norfolk [?officers] khaki beret was said to commemorate the episode. Likewise, I believe 1st Royal Anglian drummers have black bugle cords.

That’s interesting about the action at Quebec. The references to the tradition of the black worm of the four regiments concerned mentions only the commemoration of Wolfe and his death at the battle, so perhaps they deemed it sufficient purely to have been under his command. The black drummers cords of the Royal Anglian I thought related to the facing colour of the 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire, the old 58th. There’s been so much amalgamation now that it’s difficult to keep track.

You make an interesting reference to the tombstone shaped black patch, but the first unit to wear the khaki beret in all of the infantry was the so-called Tiger Company of the Royal Anglian Regiment, which was the rump of the Leicestershire Regiment belatedly sent to join the Anglians when the Foresters Brigade was broken up and dispersed. They briefly became 4 Royal Anglian before being reduced to company strength while their fate was decided. I seem to recall they did last over a year before defence cuts led to their complete disbandment. It was not long after that the Anglians adopted the erstwhile Leicester’s regimental button as their own, which it remains today.

[jf42]

Re. the 1st ANGLIAN bugle cords, as often as not, it seems often to turn out that a certain distinction will be explained by an old line facing colour rather than a dramatic moment in unit history cited in common parlance.

I've been scouring my files unsuccessfully for notes I made re the Norfolks khaki beret. I recall that this had something to do with a Norfolk battalion's association serving as motorised infantry (perhaps with the Guards Armoured Division?) during the Second World War, which led to the officers at least adopting a khaki beret, a practice that was discontinued at the end of the war.

The notes I have found indicate the khaki beret was resumed ca. 1960 by officers of the 1st Battalion, The East Anglia Regiment (Norfolk and Suffolk) and then, after the formation of the Royal Anglians in 1966, by all battalions of the regiment ca. 1970-71 with the black backing patch supposedly recalling the death of Sir John Moore at La Coruña in 1809.

What was the explanation of the khaki beret brought by the contingent from the Leicesters, I wonder?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by jf42

Re. the 1st ANGLIAN bugle cords, as often as not, it seems often to turn out that a certain distinction will be explained by an old line facing colour rather than a dramatic moment in unit history cited in common parlance.

I've been scouring my files unsuccessfully for notes I made re the Norfolks khaki beret. I recall that this had something to do with a Norfolk battalion's association serving as motorised infantry (perhaps with the Guards Armoured Division?) during the Second World War, which led to the officers at least adopting a khaki beret, a practice that was discontinued at the end of the war.

The notes I have found indicate the khaki beret was resumed ca. 1960 by officers of the 1st Battalion, The East Anglia Regiment (Norfolk and Suffolk) and then, after the formation of the Royal Anglians in 1966, by all battalions of the regiment ca. 1970-71 with the black backing patch supposedly recalling the death of Sir John Moore at La Coruña in 1809.

What was the explanation of the khaki beret brought by the contingent from the Leicesters, I wonder?

That all seems accurate to me JF. I first saw the Khaki Beret on Tiger Company at Canterbury in 1974 and it surprised me greatly. See pages 28-30: http://royalanglianmuseum.org.uk/Ram...ary%201975.pdf
At the time the Guards were not yet wearing the khaki beret and the SNCOs from Royal Anglian at my own unit at Shorncliffe did not seem to be wearing it either, although I do not know which battalion’s they came from.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by jf42

Re. the 1st ANGLIAN bugle cords, as often as not, it seems often to turn out that a certain distinction will be explained by an old line facing colour rather than a dramatic moment in unit history cited in common parlance.

I've been scouring my files unsuccessfully for notes I made re the Norfolks khaki beret. I recall that this had something to do with a Norfolk battalion's association serving as motorised infantry (perhaps with the Guards Armoured Division?) during the Second World War, which led to the officers at least adopting a khaki beret, a practice that was discontinued at the end of the war.

The notes I have found indicate the khaki beret was resumed ca. 1960 by officers of the 1st Battalion, The East Anglia Regiment (Norfolk and Suffolk) and then, after the formation of the Royal Anglians in 1966, by all battalions of the regiment ca. 1970-71 with the black backing patch supposedly recalling the death of Sir John Moore at La Coruña in 1809.

What was the explanation of the khaki beret brought by the contingent from the Leicesters, I wonder?

I have now been able to find the definitive details for the regiment’s that wore black mourning ‘lines’ in their lace in PERRY page 180 and have been surprised to learn that there were eight regiments in total divided equally between Quebec and Corunna. It states that the rationale is for those regiments whose CinC died in action whilst they were under command. The regiments were:
9th (Norfolk’s)
15th (E.York’s)
17th (Leicester’s)
31st & 70th (E.Surrey’s)
47th & 81st (Loyal’s)
65th & 84th (York & Lancs)
75th & 92nd (Gordon’s)
88th & 94th (Connaught’s)

[norfolk regt man]

Hi all , great post everyone. Thanks

[jf42]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I have now been able to find the definitive details for the regiment’s that wore black mourning ‘lines’ in their lace in PERRY page 180 and have been surprised to learn that there were eight regiments in total divided equally between Quebec and Corunna. It states that the rationale is for those regiments whose CinC died in action whilst they were under command. The regiments were:
9th (Norfolk’s)
15th (E.York’s)
17th (Leicester’s)
31st & 70th (E.Surrey’s)
47th & 81st (Loyal’s)
65th & 84th (York & Lancs)
75th & 92nd (Gordon’s)
88th & 94th (Connaught’s)

Some time later.

I was having a scout around to see what back ground information might be available regarding the regiments in the above list who cannot be associated with the deaths of General Wolfe (15th, 17th & 47th) or Sir John Moore.(9th & 92nd), viz the 31st, 65th and the 88th

The only association I can detect is with the Duke of Wellington. The 2/31st were at Talavera. The 65th fought in the Mahratta wars, recalled by the Tiger in their cap badge. The 88th bore the distinction 'Peninsular' on their colours, as well as the names of numerous individual actions in that campaign. I have not been able to find reference but perhaps these regiments wore black to commemorate the Duke of Wellington after his death in 1852.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by jf42

Some time later.

I was having a scout around to see what back ground information might be available regarding the regiments in the above list who cannot be associated with the deaths of General Wolfe (15th, 17th & 47th) or Sir John Moore.(9th & 92nd), viz the 31st, 65th and the 88th

The only association I can detect is with the Duke of Wellington. The 2/31st were at Talavera. The 65th fought in the Mahratta wars, recalled by the Tiger in their cap badge. The 88th bore the distinction 'Peninsular' on their colours, as well as the names of numerous individual actions in that campaign. I have not been able to find reference but perhaps these regiments wore black to commemorate the Duke of Wellington after his death in 1852.

I don’t think that can be the case Jack, as the Duke of Wellington was not KIA simultaneously to the regiment’s concerned being under command, which according to the reference was the key qualifier.

Unfortunately Perry does not elaborate further and his very detailed book, published in 1887, and so within living memory of the Childers Reforms, refers to the new regimental names (and their forebear numbers), without making clear whether 1st or 2nd Battalion was the origin.

The black line is referred to in officers dress regulations from Childers onward, but the previous iterations for the numbered regiments are less detailed and I’m not sure if there’s any mention. I will try to look in due course.