British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Common Forums > Reproductions, Restrikes, Fakes, Forgeries, and Copies

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 16-11-20, 11:47 AM
Third Tankie's Avatar
Third Tankie Third Tankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sunny Devon
Posts: 334
Default Makers' marks

Hi Gents,

Posting these three for opinions if possible.

Thanks

Kevin
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF0828.jpg (63.2 KB, 221 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF0829.jpg (68.7 KB, 272 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF0830.jpg (74.6 KB, 188 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF0831.jpg (64.0 KB, 200 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF0832.jpg (62.9 KB, 177 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF0833.jpg (62.7 KB, 205 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 16-11-20, 12:44 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,948
Default

The Flint & Denbigh plus Pembroke Yeos are fake. The EKY/Kent Cyclists is good.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 16-11-20, 01:00 PM
Third Tankie's Avatar
Third Tankie Third Tankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sunny Devon
Posts: 334
Default

Luke,

Once again thank you, on past performance one out of three aint bad!

Regards

Kevin
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 16-11-20, 01:23 PM
GriffMJ's Avatar
GriffMJ GriffMJ is offline
LYPAO Boff
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Caerlŷr, yn Lloegr.
Posts: 6,445
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Third Tankie View Post
Luke,

Once again thank you, on past performance one out of three aint bad!

Regards

Kevin
Hello Kevin

See here for the DHY insignia in detail :- https://www.paoyeomanry.org.uk/DHYYMenu.htm
__________________
Cofion gorau
Gruffydd M-J
www.paoyeomanry.org.uk

"A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry"
Lechyd da pob Cymro
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 16-11-20, 02:13 PM
Third Tankie's Avatar
Third Tankie Third Tankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sunny Devon
Posts: 334
Default

Griff,

Thanks, the errors in the badge I posted become very apparent when compared with your examples.

Length of the scroll, lack of a ",", the reach of the feathers to the scroll and I take it the moody "Smith & Wright" slider.

"Marshed" again....................

Regards

Kevin
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 20-11-20, 02:39 AM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,948
Default

Sorry I missed your last question. Yes it is indeed a fake Smith & Wright mark and differs from the real thing in several respects.

For starters the mark is on two lines, the only two line Smith & Wright mark which I believe to be genuine is found on the disc-shaped 2nd pattern GvR Royal Defence Corps badge, KK1063.

The size and spacing of the marks are also wrong. Several, like yours, have overly large spacing. Also note the rounded letter ends to the font, this is typically fake.

The mark on your badge is from a series of fake marks that cropped up some years ago. All are in the same Sans Serif font and they lack correct full stops and/or underscoring in the correct places.

This tranche of fake marks included some well known but also several obscure makers and outfitters e.g.


BP .& .CoLD.B’HAM


BUTLER ..48.. VICTORIA ST
............BIRMINGHAM


CHARLES REEVES


F.E.WOODWARD B’HAM


GLADMAN & NORMAN
.SPENCER ST. B’HAM


GROVE MGF B’HAM


J.W. TIPTAFT.. &.. SON LTD
.............BIRMINGHAM


JOSEPH STARKEY


JENNENS & Co. LONDON


JONES.. &...JASON..LTD
.........BIRMINGHAM


LAMBOURNE & Co
.... BIRMINGHAM


SMITH .& ..WRIGHT LTD
.........BIRMINGHAM


.. STARR
PUTNEYSW


SUTTLE CAMBRIDGE


THOMAS FATTORINI
...........BOLTON


W^D

I may have missed some.

The attached images are of the two Smith & Wright marks I consider genuine. I’m sure you can see the significant differences between them in all aspects mentioned above.

My observations and reply are in respect to metal badges only, not AA’s.

Finally, yes sadly you were ‘Marshed’ . Those PoW plumes are the dreaded ‘dumpy feathers’. Overly square, fat and ribbed etc. they are from the Martin Marsh catalogue and any badge you encounter with them is a fake.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 0B3A4F9A-DCF0-4492-9AAA-CBC7786B3299.jpg (26.7 KB, 185 views)
File Type: jpeg 695E8A39-E3EB-4061-9286-B6C326252D69.jpeg (22.9 KB, 185 views)

Last edited by Luke H; 20-11-20 at 04:28 PM. Reason: Formatting makers marks
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 20-11-20, 02:58 AM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,948
Default Fake Marks

Here are the examples of the above fake marks I listed.

Hopefully you can see the similarities in all the marks’ characteristics and the identical font. The correct sizes, spacing, fonts and punctuations of respective genuine marks can be found in other threads and albums.

The makers mark section is also worth a visit albeit it has not been updated for some considerable time and does contain several of these fake marks not all of which are identified as such.

It’s also worth noting here that cap badge sliders were never marked with the War Department broad arrow. Additionally I have never see a genuine Butler (actually based Vittoria St not Victoria St), Jones & Jason, Joseph Starkey, Charles Reeves or Jennens marked slider, nor do I believe they exist on British Army cap badges.

N.B. Both the Butler and Jennens fake marks also appear on backplates for City of London Yeomanry badges.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg C2380667-5FD2-4117-B9BA-F7285AA6191C.jpg (38.3 KB, 166 views)
File Type: jpg 0D6CA29C-8CB8-4F0B-89C4-3FC7767D478E.jpg (24.3 KB, 114 views)
File Type: jpg BE73BD70-ED43-4CF6-8A6F-2D37BA33BDFB.jpg (31.2 KB, 96 views)
File Type: jpg 7E25CC47-A6D6-485E-8856-AF75CCD3494C.jpg (23.4 KB, 98 views)
File Type: jpg E909AE91-7365-4EFE-8CFF-32FDFB458F21.jpg (31.6 KB, 119 views)
File Type: jpg 0A849E27-71E6-444F-B79A-8C835DDE1447.jpg (28.1 KB, 94 views)
File Type: jpg 01BFE20F-7147-487F-BC37-D8777B409675.jpg (26.9 KB, 96 views)
File Type: jpg 64562420-9BB2-438B-A229-3626F60DB40E.jpg (11.8 KB, 83 views)
File Type: jpg E88B6B49-D95F-4BEA-9A4A-59CDBFDB1930.jpg (35.3 KB, 106 views)
File Type: jpg E4D8EA63-23D5-480D-9DDE-287CB3CDFA60.jpg (29.7 KB, 99 views)
File Type: jpg 1D9CF838-A475-469C-8FCF-C2554652BD45.jpg (26.6 KB, 104 views)
File Type: jpg 18A4B229-0B7B-47B0-83E9-F0FC799F4A26.jpg (19.9 KB, 91 views)
File Type: jpg 015C6D86-937F-4763-B0EA-12DAC9853998.jpg (20.0 KB, 97 views)
File Type: jpg 01DA573D-D585-4159-BDF2-BE17A333FF93.jpg (33.4 KB, 86 views)
File Type: jpg CF5BB6C7-CBC0-43DF-8E6B-7565332D0DC2.jpg (26.0 KB, 97 views)

Last edited by Luke H; 20-11-20 at 04:46 PM. Reason: More MMs added
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 20-11-20, 08:51 AM
Third Tankie's Avatar
Third Tankie Third Tankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sunny Devon
Posts: 334
Default

Luke,

Two outstanding and informative replies, I am sure there will be other members, in a similar position to me, that will be muttering "Bloody Marsh" when looking through their collection......

Once again thank you.

Kevin
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 20-11-20, 04:48 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,948
Default

Thanks Kevin. I’ve added a few more.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 4A3B54BD-1E52-4D77-B023-0E086897777F.jpg (29.5 KB, 129 views)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 20-11-20, 05:18 PM
Sapper795 Sapper795 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 297
Default

Luke.
Thanks for posting pictures of fake maker marks.
Have already found it helpful, I am sure I will refer to this post again.
Chris
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 20-11-20, 07:09 PM
CAM's Avatar
CAM CAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire
Posts: 1,228
Default

Another great reply Luke.

Thank you.

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 22-11-20, 05:34 PM
JerryBB's Avatar
JerryBB JerryBB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wales
Posts: 5,046
Default

great and useful posts Luke


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
Here are the examples of the above fake marks I listed.

Hopefully you can see the similarities in all the marks’ characteristics and the identical font. The correct sizes, spacing, fonts and punctuations of respective genuine marks can be found in other threads and albums.

The makers mark section is also worth a visit albeit it has not been updated for some considerable time and does contain several of these fake marks not all of which are identified as such.

It’s also worth noting here that cap badge sliders were never marked with the War Department broad arrow. Additionally I have never see a genuine Butler (actually based Vittoria St not Victoria St), Jones & Jason, Joseph Starkey, Charles Reeves or Jennens marked slider, nor do I believe they exist on British Army cap badges.

N.B. Both the Butler and Jennens fake marks also appear on backplates for City of London Yeomanry badges.
__________________
Regards,

Jerry
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 16-01-21, 09:39 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,948
Default Sharman D. Niell Ltd Belfast

Another I missed off.

SHARMAN D. NIELL LTD
...........BELFAST


The only genuine mark for this outfitter I’ve encountered on what was used as a British Army cap badge is the embossed one found on the WW1 era Ulster Division’s ‘Dixie’ badge. Which has also itself been faked in a couple of ways.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg A7F4E78D-369B-4502-9E5E-AD7E333E80A3.jpg (84.0 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg 649126B8-8AD2-4578-8C56-9795B5239BEC.jpg (68.2 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg 34A71E09-58C5-4B87-A358-0D0767302F2D.jpg (27.1 KB, 82 views)

Last edited by Luke H; 16-01-21 at 11:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 24-03-21, 03:41 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,948
Default Armfield

Hadn’t encountered this one before. Thanks to spreadeagle for bringing it to my attention.

E .ARMFIELD

Armfield were a WW1 manufacturer listed in the 1914-19 Board of Trade Labour Gazette.

To date the only badge I’ve encountered with their (genuine) mark is the Warwickshire Yeomanry in GM. The genuine mark has different wording and is not on a single line.

Mods - it may be worth splitting this thread and adding the spurious marks posts to the repro section?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CC795EB0-625D-4B0A-B4FC-91CB9AA1CB7B.jpg (116.3 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg 847DFF26-330A-49A2-9D17-F182B376970B.jpg (82.9 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg 2E230D74-F5DA-4F41-A008-2BD36B65DAA5.jpg (53.2 KB, 53 views)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-08-21, 10:36 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,948
Default Henry Slingsby Ltd Nuneaton

Yet another, found on a fake Sussex Yeomanry.

HENRY SLINGSBY LTD
…..….NUNEATON


Graces Guides has a page on them. In a 1920 poster the company described themselves as ‘Emblematical Regalia Manufacturers’.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg AA640406-980F-4073-834E-8CE29CF14F67.jpg (32.8 KB, 65 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:55 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.