eBay Para Regt badge KC opinions please

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by silverwash

Sun's out ! this pattern as always created confusion because of the unsymmetrical rigging lines. cannot comment on the feet of the lugs as my angle grinder is on loan. I seem to remember an image of a Gaunt catalogue illustrating lugs that did possess evolutionary feet, however not size tens. I also remember being told by a collector that I should avoid any cap badge with lugs that are the same colour as copper fittings used for plumbing.

A fairly large foot on this D shaped Gaunt lug in my opinion.

20200925_203243.jpg

[silverwash]

with the aid of a clothes peg herewith closeup. as can be discerned the lug possesses an embryonic foot, ill fitting for a clodhopper.

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by silverwash

with the aid of a clothes peg herewith closeup. as can be discerned the lug possesses an embryonic foot, ill fitting for a clodhopper.

Thanks for taking the trouble to show the close ups.

[tcrown]

Very interesting discussion, Gents about a controversial badge.
I have a similar one which came with a 1945 Kangol beret.
1945 Beret NV White Metal With Beret.jpg 1945 Beret Badge attachment.jpg

I've made a few close-up comparisons with the photos provided by Marinus. We can clearly see the die flaws on mine.
Badge Comp.jpgWhite Metal Die Flaws Comp.jpg

However, the badges don't seem quite identical, particularly the lion.
Lion Comp.jpg

What's interesting is the way the unsymmetrical lugs distance which makes me think that the badge is original to the beret.
Of note, my badge has been slightly polished (rigging lines and crown) which doesn't seem to be the case for the other one.
1945 Beret NV White Metal.jpg

I would love to see a better photo of Paul's badge. Difficult to come up with a definitive conclusion on this variant as it seems.
Looking forward to seeing your comments.

[silverwash]

Originally Posted by Jack8

Thanks for taking the trouble to show the close ups.

whether any definite conclusion can be drawn to establish the parentage of this pattern remains to be seen. Firmin produced examples exhibit the same rigging line symmetry, the only fly in the ointment being the larger crown and lion.

[Luke H]

tcrown I’m certain the badge you show is the one that is the topic of interest in this thread, rather the lion and crown just appear a bit less defined.

As ever there’s no absolute way of knowing if the badge and beret started out life together.

Could you post a photo of the bases of the loops please? I assume from what I can see, albeit the photo of the back appears a bit dark and lower resolution on my phone, that they are not ‘dustbin lid’ footed?

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by Jack8

A fairly large foot on this D shaped Gaunt lug in my opinion.

Attachment 231272

Would anyone say that this was a "dustbin lid" lug?

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Jack8

Would anyone say that this was a "dustbin lid" lug?

Not dustbin lid, no. But they are footed and very similar to the below badge.

Sadly a nice ‘D’ loop does not an original badge make..

Look at these lovely D loops with nice gold braze....... on a common moose faced stag Lovat Scouts I.Y. fake.

[Jack8]

The fakers may have bought old stock lugs.

This lug is on an early voided crown AAC badge, I would say this was quite a large foot. What are the opinions on this one?

[silverwash]

Renoir my friend, Renoir.

[Jack8]

Yes, these early AAC badges are a work of art, sorry about the landscape format.

20200927_141807.jpg

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by silverwash

whether any definite conclusion can be drawn to establish the parentage of this pattern remains to be seen. Firmin produced examples exhibit the same rigging line symmetry, the only fly in the ointment being the larger crown and lion.

There is an example of a badge in forum member Luc's Parachute Regiment Cap Badge album that he describes as a replica voided crown pattern. In my opinion it is a Firmin pattern badge identical to the officers Firmin London marked badge.

[tcrown]

Originally Posted by Luke H

Could you post a photo of the bases of the loops please? I assume from what I can see, albeit the photo of the back appears a bit dark and lower resolution on my phone, that they are not ‘dustbin lid’ footed?

Luke, see below a better photo of the badge.
1945 Beret NV White Metal 2.jpg

I've also added a few close-ups of the lugs (if you could clarify what you mean by 'dustbin lid' lugs, the debate would gain in clarity). The left one has been badly twisted.
1945 Beret NV White Metal Right lug closeup.jpg1945 Beret NV White Metal Right lug closeup 2.jpg1945 Beret NV White Metal left lug closeup.JPG

I've also added a photo of an interesting cigarette case provided by Dave Hiorth from Military Antiques in Toronto. The badge on it is clearly of the same type.
Dave's Cigarette Case.jpgDave's Cigarette Case Comp.jpg
It seems unlikely that a copy would have been mounted to the case (but I guess everything's possible).

Other photos of the case can be found on Dave’s website https://militaryantiquestoronto.com/...8e2f1b5c&_ss=r

In my view, this type of badge was genuinely issued towards the end of WW2 or immediately after. As for the badge that is the topic of interest in this thread, it could have been a restrike.
I'd like to see a close-up photo of Paul's 'White Metal Alternative' badge discussed on post #11. This may confirm my opinion.

[tcrown]

Another example of the badge for sale here https://www.ebay.ca/itm/WW2-Parachut...97.m4902.l9144

It looks like a restrike with maybe "dustbin lid" lugs. Any confirmation, Luke?

[Luke H]

Thank you tcrown. To me those bashed up loops look lovely and period, I like your badge. Were the badge from any other die I think no one would ever doubt it for a second.

The issue with these now is clearly some are not period with the Marlples & Beasley sliders and also the large ‘dustbin lid’ footed loops (attached) both of which are certainly not pre-1952 in my belief.

Based on silverwash’s and your examples I would suggest these have been restruck.

The lines on originality are now also slightly blurred with the flaws. Clearly silverwash’s badge is an earlier strike before they developed, however yours has flaws found on the M&B repro. Alas the perils of true restrikes.

The other alternative is the badges are original but were unfinished without fixings which were then added decades later. Personally I struggle with such a scenario.

Re the mounted badge if I had £1 for every repro I’d seen stuck on a tin, matchbox holder of piece of ‘trench art’ I’d be a happy man. Just the other day a member posted a very old looking wooden box with a fake solid Howe RND attached, sadly I cannot find the thread. A desirable badge on an ordinary trinket makes a £1 or £5 item worth maybe ten times that.

Dustbin lidded lugs is a bit of a colloquial term which you’ll find used by several members. My use of the term is to reference modern copper loops with a large flattened foot which is splayed out and wider than the gauge of the loop wire. These are very common on 1970s and beyond fakes.

I’ve attached a few examples as well as the Para badge in the other thread for comparison purposes.