INFANTRY CAP BADGES WORN BY RAC IN WW2

[rac1944]

Although the following dates won't pin down the photo exactly, hopefully they'll place it generally and also help with the timing of the Recce conversion/43R adoption.

161 RAC converted from 12th Bn, Green Howards at the end of July 1942, initially formed to be the A/C regiment of 42nd Armoured Div. At some point in late 1942 whilst at Scarborough they changed over to black berets. The regiment was officially transferred to the Recce Corps 12/10/1943 as 161 Reconnaissance Regiment.

As Les mentions, the regiment continued to wear both the black beret and the Green Howards cap badge. It is highly likely that 161 Recce was the first Recce regiment to wear the black beret, the black beret started being adopted by the Recce Corps in early 1944.

B Sqn 161 Recce was selected to replace A Sqn 43 R lost in the mine explosion which sank the Derrycunihy. The 161 Recce sqn arrived in France right at the end of July 1944 and 43 Recce wasted no time in bringing them into the Recce brotherhood. According to Fred Sylvester in It's The Same Brush..., the new A Sqn was issued with khaki berets and Recce cap badges about the second week of August 1944. So for approximately one week in August 1944 it would have been possible to see a large body of men of 43 Recce wearing black berets and Green Howards cap badges. Again, as Les mentions, some undoubtedly slipped through the net even after the issue of khaki/recce badges.

161 Recce remained in the UK serving as a reinforcement regiment supplying troops to NWE. They were disbanded in 1946.

43 Recce was one of those regiments which felt particularly strongly about its Recce heritage and stuck to wearing the khaki beret long past the official orders which would have come out in early 1944. Presumably reinforcements would have been sent over later in 1944 with black berets but the Regiment wasn't having any of it, so much so that their War Diary records an entry in November 1944 stating 'In no circumstances will the black beret be worn...except for maintenance.' Still sticking to the khaki beret, it wasn't until April 1945 that 43 Recce fully and officially (i.e. they recorded it in their War Diary) replaced khaki berets with black ones!

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Alan O

And here is the evidence of the GH badges on RAC berets. Undated unfortunately.

Why were the two soldiers in the image badged Green Howards wearing the RTR arm badge? I thought that this badge was, with the exception of the Westminster Dragoons, the exclusive preserve of the RTR? Or were they are pair of RTR battle casualty replacements who had hastily been rebadged Green Howards on arrival in their unit?

[Alan O]

Mike

I have no information on the individuals which is why I can't date it. However the cloth s/ts are RAC. Would the RTR not have RTR titles?

Alan

[rac1944]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

Why were the two soldiers in the image badged Green Howards wearing the RTR arm badge? I thought that this badge was, with the exception of the Westminster Dragoons, the exclusive preserve of the RTR? Or were they are pair of RTR battle casualty replacements who had hastily been rebadged Green Howards on arrival in their unit?

This is an excellent point and a real puzzler, I was also under the impression that only the Westminster Dragoons held the distinction of wearing the RTR arm badge outside of RTR battalions. They're both wearing 37 pattern BDs which would lean toward an early period photo than later but even that could be explained away by various reasons.

[rac1944]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

Why were the two soldiers in the image badged Green Howards wearing the RTR arm badge? I thought that this badge was, with the exception of the Westminster Dragoons, the exclusive preserve of the RTR? Or were they are pair of RTR battle casualty replacements who had hastily been rebadged Green Howards on arrival in their unit?

This seems to be the answer to this puzzler, from the Daily Orders of 145RAC dated 11 March 1942:
'Officers and Other Ranks of the RTR posted to this Regiment may continue to wear the Tank Arm Badge on the right arm in all orders of dress.’
In principle if 145RAC could do this then the same should, or at least could, apply to all other RAC units with RTR intakes.
John

[CAM]

Originally Posted by L&BH

This regiment, like several other ones converted to RAC, kept his original cap badge instead of adopting the RAC one on the RAC black beret. I don't know if 8th battalion had a special cap badge, but I've attached a picture of the East Lancashire one.

There is (was) a display of all the capbadges in the Museum at Bovington.

Chris

[Alan O]

https://www.wartimememoriesproject.c...c.php?pid=1377

A good photo of the 40th RTR (formerly 7th King's) wearing the RTR cap badge.

[Rob Miller]

This image shows a mechanical instructor from London Transport with a group of trainee RAC mechanics, a nice assortment of cap badges.

Rob

[Alan O]

The West Yorkshire will be the 113rd RAC. The DofW could be from any of their 4 battalions.

[tonyb]

Originally Posted by Alan O

https://www.wartimememoriesproject.c...c.php?pid=1377

A good photo of the 40th RTR (formerly 7th King's) wearing the RTR cap badge.

From my Headstone album 40th (The King's Regiment) Royal Tank Regiment RAC.
Tony.
https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ictureid=42282

[Peter Brydon]

Make of this what you will .
P.

[Alan O]

As with the WW1 Yeomanry thread what you are seeing are former Kingsmen hanging on to the old badges for as long as possible. Other RAC regts did switch to RAC (and back again in some cases) from infantry.

I doubt that bespoke badges were made but it has been well recorded that some units did get their bimetal badges plated so they stood out on their black berets. This was by no means universal.

[Alan O]

This was published in 1948 so is likely to be accurate being so contempory.

[rac1944]

144RAC wore the RAC cap badge, what isn't clear is how long they wore the E Lancs badge, if at all, once converted. Sources are particularly limited for 144, a teasing quote from their history Blue Flash - 'We began as Infantry. Those who joined the unit in the early days of the war would have found it difficult to believe that the next five years would see us with four different names, three different cap badges, converted from infantry to armour,...'

'Three .. badges' can be taken as E Lancs / RAC / R Tks. A lot of converted infantry regiments wore their infantry badge for a few months after conversion before stocks of berets and or badges became available so it is possible the same for 144RAC but so far can't be confirmed for certain.
John

[KLR]

Please Peter and Alan could you provide these references of these two .........




thanks, Julian / KLR