Makers' marks

[Third Tankie]

Hi Gents,

Posting these three for opinions if possible.

Thanks

Kevin

[Luke H]

The Flint & Denbigh plus Pembroke Yeos are fake. The EKY/Kent Cyclists is good.

[Third Tankie]

Luke,

Once again thank you, on past performance one out of three aint bad!

Regards

Kevin

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Third Tankie

Luke,

Once again thank you, on past performance one out of three aint bad!

Regards

Kevin

Hello Kevin

See here for the DHY insignia in detail :- https://www.paoyeomanry.org.uk/DHYYMenu.htm

[Third Tankie]

Griff,

Thanks, the errors in the badge I posted become very apparent when compared with your examples.

Length of the scroll, lack of a ",", the reach of the feathers to the scroll and I take it the moody "Smith & Wright" slider.

"Marshed" again....................

Regards

Kevin

[Luke H]

Sorry I missed your last question. Yes it is indeed a fake Smith & Wright mark and differs from the real thing in several respects.

For starters the mark is on two lines, the only two line Smith & Wright mark which I believe to be genuine is found on the disc-shaped 2nd pattern GvR Royal Defence Corps badge, KK1063.

The size and spacing of the marks are also wrong. Several, like yours, have overly large spacing. Also note the rounded letter ends to the font, this is typically fake.

The mark on your badge is from a series of fake marks that cropped up some years ago. All are in the same Sans Serif font and they lack correct full stops and/or underscoring in the correct places.

This tranche of fake marks included some well known but also several obscure makers and outfitters e.g.


BP .& .CoLD.B’HAM


BUTLER ..48.. VICTORIA ST
............BIRMINGHAM


CHARLES REEVES


F.E.WOODWARD B’HAM


GLADMAN & NORMAN
.SPENCER ST. B’HAM


GROVE MGF B’HAM


J.W. TIPTAFT.. &.. SON LTD
.............BIRMINGHAM


JOSEPH STARKEY


JENNENS & Co. LONDON


JONES.. &...JASON..LTD
.........BIRMINGHAM


LAMBOURNE & Co
.... BIRMINGHAM


SMITH .& ..WRIGHT LTD
.........BIRMINGHAM


.. STARR
PUTNEYSW


SUTTLE CAMBRIDGE


THOMAS FATTORINI
...........BOLTON


W^D

I may have missed some.

The attached images are of the two Smith & Wright marks I consider genuine. I’m sure you can see the significant differences between them in all aspects mentioned above.

My observations and reply are in respect to metal badges only, not AA’s.

Finally, yes sadly you were ‘Marshed’ . Those PoW plumes are the dreaded ‘dumpy feathers’. Overly square, fat and ribbed etc. they are from the Martin Marsh catalogue and any badge you encounter with them is a fake.

[Luke H]

Here are the examples of the above fake marks I listed.

Hopefully you can see the similarities in all the marks’ characteristics and the identical font. The correct sizes, spacing, fonts and punctuations of respective genuine marks can be found in other threads and albums.

The makers mark section is also worth a visit albeit it has not been updated for some considerable time and does contain several of these fake marks not all of which are identified as such.

It’s also worth noting here that cap badge sliders were never marked with the War Department broad arrow. Additionally I have never see a genuine Butler (actually based Vittoria St not Victoria St), Jones & Jason, Joseph Starkey, Charles Reeves or Jennens marked slider, nor do I believe they exist on British Army cap badges.

N.B. Both the Butler and Jennens fake marks also appear on backplates for City of London Yeomanry badges.

[Third Tankie]

Luke,

Two outstanding and informative replies, I am sure there will be other members, in a similar position to me, that will be muttering "Bloody Marsh" when looking through their collection......

Once again thank you.

Kevin

[Luke H]

Thanks Kevin. I’ve added a few more.

[Sapper795]

Luke.
Thanks for posting pictures of fake maker marks.
Have already found it helpful, I am sure I will refer to this post again.
Chris

[CAM]

Another great reply Luke.

Thank you.

Chris

[JerryBB]

great and useful posts Luke

Originally Posted by Luke H

Here are the examples of the above fake marks I listed.

Hopefully you can see the similarities in all the marks’ characteristics and the identical font. The correct sizes, spacing, fonts and punctuations of respective genuine marks can be found in other threads and albums.

The makers mark section is also worth a visit albeit it has not been updated for some considerable time and does contain several of these fake marks not all of which are identified as such.

It’s also worth noting here that cap badge sliders were never marked with the War Department broad arrow. Additionally I have never see a genuine Butler (actually based Vittoria St not Victoria St), Jones & Jason, Joseph Starkey, Charles Reeves or Jennens marked slider, nor do I believe they exist on British Army cap badges.

N.B. Both the Butler and Jennens fake marks also appear on backplates for City of London Yeomanry badges.

[Luke H]

Another I missed off.

SHARMAN D. NIELL LTD
...........BELFAST

The only genuine mark for this outfitter I’ve encountered on what was used as a British Army cap badge is the embossed one found on the WW1 era Ulster Division’s ‘Dixie’ badge. Which has also itself been faked in a couple of ways.

[Luke H]

Hadn’t encountered this one before. Thanks to spreadeagle for bringing it to my attention.

E .ARMFIELD

Armfield were a WW1 manufacturer listed in the 1914-19 Board of Trade Labour Gazette.

To date the only badge I’ve encountered with their (genuine) mark is the Warwickshire Yeomanry in GM. The genuine mark has different wording and is not on a single line.

Mods - it may be worth splitting this thread and adding the spurious marks posts to the repro section?

[Luke H]

Yet another, found on a fake Sussex Yeomanry.

HENRY SLINGSBY LTD
…..….NUNEATON

Graces Guides has a page on them. In a 1920 poster the company described themselves as ‘Emblematical Regalia Manufacturers’.