Interesting photo - Naval Officers(?)

[Guzzman]

Image r: Indian Navy sword hilt.

Image s: R.I.M. sword hilt.

Image t: Engineering Sub-Lieutenant RIM, c. 1908

I know that none of these provide answers to you questions but hopefully they are of some interest.

Pete

[pinfrin]

Originally Posted by Guzzman

Hello Pinfrin

Well after going through hundreds of images whilst attempting to answer your questions I think it's pretty fair to say that I've had little success. As you no doubt know the amount of information on the uniforms of the 'colonial' Indian navy (under whatever name!) is minimal. I've looked through all my books and I can give you the entire naval history of India - names of senior officers, dockyard officials, names of ships, etc. - but very little definate information on uniforms.

It has been such a frustrating exercise!

I did find an image of the Lion rampant on a belt plate but when I attempted to enlarge it the image became too blurred to be of any use.

Re the cap badge. I can find no images of the Lion rampant being worn as a cap badge. Are you sure that it was being worn at this date? Was any device being worn on caps at that time? The Royal Navy only adopted a badge for caps in 1846 (a Crown) and this remained in use until 1856. The badge worn by naval officers today had its origins in the badge introduced in 1856.

Caps themselves only began to be worn by naval officers during the 1830s. Cocked hats were expensive, so officers began wearing a peaked cap at sea. The Admiralty did not approve of this practice (peaked caps were worn by 'common' working men) so they banned their use ashore. Is it not feasible that peaked caps were worn in India without badges at this time?

Anyway, despite having unable to answer any of your other questions I have found some images of insignia which I hope you will find of interest. I will put them up in batches for you.

Pete

Very kind of you to have shared all this invaluable information.

[1] Reference blue text above. Request pic of the lion rampant on the belt plate ( even without enlargement ) please.
[2] About the Cap badge ( red text above ) attached a scan of one page of the Uniforms Appendix from Hasting's book.
Could scan the other 4 pages if required (?) Says " the caps of all officers to be surmounted by the Company's Lion "
( The July 29, 1852 G. Order ) The Aug 1831 Order 'round hat with gold loop' for Lieutenants and below. Also 1858 onwards
says ' adopted the irradiated Star of India ' last bit - not too clear.
[3] The peak caps note for the RN very helpful. Thank you. Which book(s)
or Dress Regs ( like for the Army ) should I refer to for RN Uniforms (19 th century.) ?
[4] As you have clarified 1894(2), so then to 1950 seems known OK.
Perhaps something more in the old journals & reports of the RIN journals from 1934 to 1997 and the RIM Club
( finds mention in the preface of the 'Bombay Buccaneers' book) for the 1863 to 1892 period.
Saw a few journals once, had some line drawings and write ups.

[pinfrin]

Originally Posted by Guzzman

Before going any further I should make reference to an excellent history of the Indian Navy published in 1877:-

History of the Indian Navy (1613-1863) by Charles Rathbone Low. Lieutenant (late Indian Navy). Published in two volumes by Richard Bentley and Son, 1877.

Both volumes are available to read on the internet.

In his book Low relates that in July 1828 the Bombay Marine adopted a new button and belt clasp.

"The button to be raised gilt, one inch in diameter, inducted with a round rim, within the rim an anchor and a cable, above the anchor a lion rampant supporting the crown."

"Clasp pain square, gilt with a circle wreath, within the wreath the anchor and cable, with the lion above, of silver."

Now some examples:

Image a: Indian Navy

Image b: Small E.I.C. button (pre-1828?) and Indian Navy buttons.

Image c: Indian Navy.

Image d: H.E.I.C. button.

Image e: Indian Navy epaulettes worn by Commodore Robert Oliver. 1828 pattern but manufactured in 1837.

Image f: close-up of above epaulette.

[1] Many thanks for pointing out Low. I have his hardcover books, didn't read them carefully before. Pages 501 to 502 have the extensive Unifroms, Insigna note sourced by you.
[2] Fantastic pic collection !

[pinfrin]

Originally Posted by Guzzman

Image r: Indian Navy sword hilt.

Image s: R.I.M. sword hilt.

Image t: Engineering Sub-Lieutenant RIM, c. 1908

I know that none of these provide answers to you questions but hopefully they are of some interest.

Pete

Thank you for the exhaustive details.
The insignia lineage has become much more clear now !

[Guzzman]

Hello Pinfrin

Glad some of what I found was of some use! Certainly keen to follow up anything I can on naval uniforms worn in India during the 19th century. As you may have seen from some of my other posts I am very interested in 19th/early- 20th century colonial naval forces. I have focussed more in the past on Australia, New Zealand and South Africa but I see I have to start some serious study on Indian naval uniforms! One thing, sadly, that all these places have in common is a serious lack of research and documentation on the various units concerned. Thankfully, this is something that is now beginning to change.

Very interested in the information re caps in the Indian Navy. I'll give you some reference sources re the adoption of peaked caps in the Royal Navy and I'll endeavour to get a better image of the belt clasp.

Many thanks for sharing your information.

Pete

[Guzzman]

Hello Pinfrin

Still endeavouring to get a clear image of the belt plate. Have now got my brother-in-law involved as he's much better at that sort of thing than I am.

I have some sources re information on caps but I thought you might appreciate a bit of background history as well.

Vice-Admiral Sir William Henry Dillon claimed to have been indirectly responsible for introducing the peaked cap into the Royal Navy. He stated that in September 1819, when his ship the Phaeton was in company with the Royal Yacht, the Prince Regent noted with approval that the Phaeton's officers were wearing blue caps with gold bands. The Prince Regent ordered that the officers serving in his yacht be supplied with them. The use of caps whilst at sea, in place of the costly cocked hat, quickly spread and despite their use being frowned on by the Admiralty it wasn't long before the practice recieved official sanction.

The first reference to the official adoption of the peaked cap comes in the 1825 Dress Regulations (dated 1st January 1825). These are the first illustrated dress regulations available to us. Included in the regulations is a new innovation - a special undress uniform to be worn at sea only. This was authorised for all officers. With it was worn a round black hat or a blue peaked cap. The blue cap had a band of gold lace of varying widths, depending on rank, for all those above Lieutenant, that rank having black silk binding. See Images 1 and 2.

During the early 1840s, officers of HMS Queen took up the practice of wearing an embroidered crown on the gold band just above the peak. During a visit to the ship, Queen Victoria noticed the addition and suggested that the crown be worn on the caps of all Royal Navy officers: the Admiralty authorised the wearing of the crown in an [B]Instruction dated 21st March 1846[B]. Images 3 and 4.

Further amendments to the design and use of caps were made in the 1856 Dress Regulations (issued 11th April 1856). Officers caps, which had for some time been decreasing in size, became very close-fitting. All the fullness was taken from the crown, which now stretched tightly across the head. The black mohair band arrived, together with 'a distinguishing device placed in front of the cap, consisting of a crown embroidered in gold and silver and a silver anchor, surrounded by laurel branches.' This cap badge has remained fundamentally unchanged.

In the 1856 regulations the cap became the Midshipman's headgear for all occasions. Other officers retained the use of the cocked hat.

Image 1: Captain, Flag-officer and Commander in Undress Uniform, 1829-33.

Image 2: A close-up image of the caps worn.

Image 3: The Crown badge adopted for wear on caps in 1846.

Image 4: Naval Cadet, 1846-56. Note cap with crown badge.

The above information can be found in the appropriate Dress Regulations and in all good books on the development of Royal Navy uniforms. A good, though now somewhat dated volume, is British Naval Dress by Dudley Jarret and published by J.M. Dent & Sons Ltd, London, 1960.

[RCN]

Originally Posted by Guzzman

The above information can be found in the appropriate Dress Regulations and in all good books on the development of Royal Navy uniforms. A good, though now somewhat dated volume, is British Naval Dress by Dudley Jarret and published by J.M. Dent & Sons Ltd, London, 1960.

SUPER book - likely virtually unobtainable now, I just happened upon mine a couple yrs back in a stack of old book all priced at $1!!
I have att'd a few of the photo/plates in the book.....

Thanks for the info you have shown on the IM Guz - my knowledge of IM is virtually nothing, so I have learned a lot from your posts! Amazing where that photo I posted has led us!

Bryan

[Guzzman]

Hi Bryan

Good to hear from you as always!

Yes, an excellent book. Can still sometimes find it in decent second-hand bookshops here. Certainly worth keeping an eye out for.

It IS amazing how far one unusual postcard has led us. That's one of the advantages of this site and the great input you get from everyone.

By the way, I recently found a new website specialising in RCN trade badges. I'll post the details later - although you probably know it already!

How's the weather with you? Has winter started yet?

Pete

[Guzzman]

Hi again Bryan

The site is called 'Royal Canadian Navy' and can be found at www.forposterityssake.ca/RCN.htm

It's a really great site with all Canadian trade badges from the founding of the RCN right up to date plus lots of other stuff about the RCN and the Canadian Forces (Navy).

I'm sure you will be familiar with it already!

Pete

[RCN]

Originally Posted by Guzzman

Hi Bryan

Good to hear from you as always!

How's the weather with you? Has winter started yet?

Pete

& you also Pete! Learned a lot about the IM from the postings you have made in this topic, never collected to the IM thus know little about it.

Winter coming ? Definitely, its late fall here now but where I am we are below freezing overnite, but days are still above. Snow? yes its coming but I am ready for it, all the summer "toys" in storage, boats & docks up, chains on the ATV,(for driveway plowing), wood has been in for some time now -- all the crap one has to do in the fall, all done now!

Bryan

[RCN]

Originally Posted by Guzzman

Hi again Bryan

The site is called 'Royal Canadian Navy' and can be found at www.forposterityssake.ca/RCN.htm

It's a really great site with all Canadian trade badges from the founding of the RCN right up to date plus lots of other stuff about the RCN and the Canadian Forces (Navy).

I'm sure you will be familiar with it already!

Pete

Yes I am aware of that site Pete, a good informative site but several identification errors in the trade badge section so one has to be careful & not tak all of the illustrated badges as 'definitive'.

B

[RCN]

Originally Posted by Guzzman

Hi Bryan

Yes, an excellent book. Can still sometimes find it in decent second-hand bookshops here. Certainly worth keeping an eye out for.

Pete

I only found my copy accidentally or I guess "stumbled" across it. A book vendor at a military show I attend regularly had a stack of older books on his table with a $1 ea price on them, so I had a look thru them thinking I might find something of interest & about 10 in out pops "British Naval Dress" still with original dust cover & noted in pencil inside cover: "$(C)39.95 "First Edition(1960) long out of print, excellent reference".
It was in beautiful condition, virtually mint condition, like newly printed, I don't think ever read, probably sat in a bookcase for yrs & yrs.

I could not get the loonie($1) out quick enough & get away before he might discover what he had just given away!

I have read thru it a couple times, lots of very useful info & photos inside.

B

[RCN]

Here is a nice rate badge I picked up not too too long ago Pete.
I thought it might interest you, & perhaps others.... I have never seen one in gold, or in red for that matter, but I do have a blue example to mate it with......

yes, I know I have taken this off topic & apologize, should have started a new topic!

B

[Guzzman]

Hi Bryan

A very nice badge! You are a lucky man. And I shan't mention about going off topic if you won't ...

Pete

[pinfrin]

Hi Guzzman,

image of the belt plate
Hope some pic turns out - even if minor or miniscule. Would be very interesting.
1825 Dress Regulations (1st Jan 1825) and the 1856 Dress Regulations (11 Apr 1856).
Would you know of any site or source selling reprints of these and other Navy Dress Regs of the 19 th cent please ?

(a) The Naval & Military Press has reprints of Army Dress Regs for 1852,1857,1891 and IA Dress Regs for 1913,1931
NMP also has a book as below - any parallel for the RN seen anywhere ?
Eagles & Anchors The Belts and Belt Plates of the US Navy & Marine Corps 1780 to 1941

(b) DP & G Publications http://www.military-naval-history.co...es_colours.htm has
1. Dress Regulations of the British Army – volumes –
1822, 1826, 1831, 1834, 1846, 1855, 1857, 1862, 1874, 1883, 1894
2. Uniform Regulations for Officers, Petty Officers & Seaman of the Fleet 1879
3. Army Regulations, India, Vol VII, Dress 1886; 1901; 1913.

Trying to figure out the sequence / descriptions / pics of the sword belt badges of the RN
( + the linked HEIC, IM, IN, RIM, Bombay Marine, RIN ) their buttons and cap badges. 1815 to 2015.
For instance the Victorian RN sword belt badges of the latter part of 19 c come in 2 flavors - Fine lined background and plain vanilla.
Don't know when the change took place. Earlier Sw.B badges had tilted anchor stocks at one stage / period -
don't know which period. The 1845 RN List cover has a straight anchor stock, more mystery.
Then the RIN for some reason reverted to a tilted anchor stock on their crest from 1934 to 1950.

As regards Flags, Ensigns, Pennants for the IN and its varied / serial names 1612 to 1928 saw
Cdr EC Streatfeild-James book which has a good summary and a color plate.
(Also has an account of how ~ 1848 HMS Falmouth and the IN Frigate Revenge had decks cleared for action in a dispute -
who could fly a broad red pennant the RN or the IN ? )