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#1
06-05-12, 10:30 AM
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Small Pattern Border Regiment Cap Badge - KK 644
A new addition to the collection and one I've been seeking for quite a while. Can anyone please confirm the period of wear and has anyone seen one for sale/sold as I'm looking for a valuation?
Many thanks Andy 
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#2
06-05-12, 12:47 PM
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Small Border Regt.
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#3
06-05-12, 01:10 PM
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Hi Andy.
A fairly shortlived and scarce badge 1902 - 1905 As you are probably aware, it replaced the earlier KK 643 (with a QVC) in 1902and as I understand it remained in use until 1905, when it was replaced with KK 645, which is the larger badge. When your badge was replaced by the larger KK 645, the first issues of the new pattern have similar battle honours as KK 644, but not the same distribution on the arms of the cross. Also, I believe this is around the time that SA war honours were first introduced on badges, (I do stand to be corrected on this) hence, a new pattern of 645 was introduced, which redistibuted the battle honours and now included Relief of Ladysmith and 1899 - 02 on the lower arm of the cross. As to prices, £100 upwards, depending how much somebody wants one. Regards Brian
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#4
06-05-12, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
 Regards Brian
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#5
06-05-12, 06:58 PM
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Andy, Authorised 29th October 1901, larger successor authorised 5th July 1905 (with SA honours).
Mind you, the (long) slider shortens its life from March 1903 to July '05 - nice one ! Brian, I have the exact date of SA honours authorisation somewhere - yes I think it's 1905 from memory, I'll try and find it for you.
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#7
06-05-12, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Tim
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm" "Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!" "Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."
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#10
06-05-12, 09:56 PM
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#11
06-05-12, 10:21 PM
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This is what makes this hobby so interesting! From the information available (Thank You KLR), I would expect this smaller Border Regt KC badge introduced in 1901 to have lugs (sliders appearing on the scene in 1903)? The larger pattern introduced in 1905, I would expect to be slidered, lugs having been dispensed with 2 years prior? The badge I have shown has a longer slider, so I should imagine is post 1903 (?)
 All I'm sure are genuine, but it throws into question when sliders were introduced?Andy
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#12
06-05-12, 10:32 PM
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thanks for the information, but despite the FSC being in wear, were sliders not introduced until 1903? Andy
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#13
06-05-12, 11:22 PM
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Rgds, Thomas.
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#14
06-05-12, 11:24 PM
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Greetings.
Yes Julian, very many thanks for the information, looking forward to a definitive date. Andy, in my initial reply to your question, I stated 1902 - 05. This was based on what I have read, researched and been told, HOWEVER, I was always a wee bit dubious about this. I had always suspected that it was wrong, (as for all KC badges shown as 1902 onwards) based on the fact that by 1902 the dear old Queen had been dead for some while and that would mean that a lot of troops, especially those serving at home, would have in 1902, been wearing seriously out of date badges. Yes I know that existing stocks had to be used up, and yes, I will accept that Battalions serving overseas would still be wearing QVC badges, but I suspect that new KC patterns were being manufactured. I have a lugged example and will post a piccie when I can tomorrow. Tony: I would say that your badge, (and in my opinion a very nice example) is a not an immediate successor to the small KK 644, but a very early KK645. My reasoning being that if 1905 was the date that the SA Honours were awarded and there are examples of KK 645, (I have an unmarked silver and OSD collars and cap examples without the SA honours) and lugs were introduced in 1903ish, your example, (showing the SA honours) was produced at the transitional stage. What I'm trying to say, after a bottle and a half of vino collapso, is that I believe you badge is an example of the 1st pattern/issue of KK 645, which in my opinion is an uncommon badge, especially on lugs. And, if it ever wants to come and live in Hertfordshire, let it, there will always be a welcoming Border collection here for it.  Regards Brian
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#15
07-05-12, 08:08 AM
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I'm getting slightly confused - perhaps it's Brian's vino. I'll try and list what happened.
FSC badges introduced in the mid 1890s all had lugs Q Vic died Jan 1901 but the introduction of KC badges was not uniform and took over two years for different units. March 1903, FSC abandoned for Home Service units (exc Vol etc) in favour of Brodrick - long slider introduced for the same badges now worn on the Brodrick. BUT FSC still worn on overseas stations (India) and their badges still therefore had lugs - up to 1914 when WO said we dont't care what hats you wear but we're not paying for two types of fixing any more (not quite verbatim, I don't have the document in front of me !). (note eg RFC only wore FSC and all their badges had lugs !!) March 1906 sliders shortened as the peaked FC arrived as the badges were now on the band of the cap, not half band / half crown. YES I know that photographs show all sorts of positions but that was the theory ! I should stress that my research is based on documentary sources that tell us what should have happened ! I find this is the best starting point. You can't break the rules (if you break them at all) until you know what the rules are !!!
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