XII Manitoba Dragoons Shoulder Title

[GregN]

Hi guys, I picked this title up at the last gunshow. I'm weak in my knowledge of fabric so perhaps someone can fill me in as to the date and possible WW2 usage of this title.

Cheers,

Greg

[Michael Reintjes]

Hi Greg....Definate WW2 English made title probably early to mid war vintage...nice title and a tough one in this configuration...congrats.

[bgpipes]

It looks like it was removed from a BD, check the back side, definite stitch holes on it, nice find

[Bill A]

I agree that the example is a good WW2 title. Has all the characterisitics of British made titles. I may be splitting hairs, but I will disagree with Mike about the issue period. I think it is later wartime. The unit didn't adopt the 12 Manitoba Dragoons designation until December of 1942. Prior to that date the unit was designated the 18th (Manitoba) Armoured Car Regiment (26 Jan 1942 until 16 Dec 1942), and before that the 18th (Manitoba) Reconnaissance Battalion (10 May 1941 until 26 Jan 1942). The title exists for the 18 Recce unit in yellow on green (the colours of the British Reconnaisance Corps). So, the 12 Man Dragoons would not have had the oyster on maroon title until early 1943.

[GregN]

Thanks guys I mentioned the title to my dad and he was quite happy so it goes to his museum, for the moment. He said something about me owing him as "I was the fruit of his loins"!

I cut him off right there as I was suddenly feeling ill. Anyway, it's off to the Niagara Falls portion of my/our museum.

Cheers,

Greg

[Michael Reintjes]

Great points by Bill A, and as usual,he's quite right,this title must be mid war,given this unit's previous designations,.Bgpipes has a keen eye as well as it does look that this flash has seen use on a BD. Great flash,thanks for the scans...M.

[Pylon1357]

I have to agree that this title looks to be a good WWII British Made Title.

Greg, understand the queasy feeling you got during the conversation with your father....I get the same feeling when my own father tends to start talking along the same lines. LOL

[GregN]

One of these just went on ePAY! for HUGE dollars. Someone wanted it really bad! It can't be that rare.

G

[Bill A]

Greg, This title seems to be one that has taken on a life of its own. Every time one comes up on ebay, it tends to go high, and usually to Europe. Having said that, it is not rare, but not common either. And, there are several patterns of the title dating to the WW2 era.
In a bit of a coincidence, I was doing some research yesterday, and I came across a reference in some documents to the 12 Manitoba Dragoons. The document indicates that as the 12 Dragoons are now under the 2 Corps, new shoulder titles are now authorized. This document is dated 8 April 1943, and given the date and sequence of namings for the unit prior to this date, this appears to be the authorization for the oyster/maroon pattern shoulder title.

[fearnaught]

that as the 12 Dragoons are now under the 2 Corps, new shoulder titles are now authorized. This document is dated 8 April 1943,

When did they wear the 12D blue diamond?

[Bill A]

The 12 D 2 Corps patch appears to have been approved sometime in 1943. However, it was only to be worn in conjunction with the Canadian Armoured Corps shoulder title. By this time units of the Canadian army were moving away from unit abbreviations on formation patches to the shoulder title / plain formation patch combination. So, the 12 Manitoba Dragoons likely had the 12 D 2 Corps patch at the same time as they had the full shoulder title. Some photo evidence from 1943 shows the patch in wear, but photos from 1944 and 1945 only show the plain blue 2 Corps patch. Other photo evidence from 1943 clearly shows the 12 / Manitoba Dragoons /Canada titles having been taken into use.
It doesn't make sense to have both in wear at one time, but it may have been done.

[boots and saddles]

Hi Greg
That Regt must have had a time trying to keep shoulder flashes up, Perhaps out of desperation they just put up the CANADA flash. Here are some that I have all Canadian made but according to Bill there are still others. The first one with your designation is canvas Can you date these Bill? Ray

[Bill A]

Hi Ray, Here are some ideas about time periods from the order of battle for the Canadian army in WW2. (Mark Tonner, ON ACTIVE SERVICE)

Serial 977 18th (Manitoba) Reconnaissance Battalion, C.A.C.
Authorized: GO 260/41 - Effective 10 May 41, Converted & Redesignated: GO 132/42 - Effective 26 Jan 42
Converted & Redesignated: Serial No. 977 - 18th (Manitoba) Armoured Car Regiment, C.A.C. -
GO 132/42 - Effective 26 Jan 42
Serial 977 18th (Manitoba) Armoured Car Regiment, C.A.C.
Authorized: GO 132/42 - Effective 26 Jan 42, Redesignated: GO 66/43 - Effective 16 Dec 42
Redesignated: Serial No. 977 - 18th Armoured Car Regiment (12th Manitoba Dragoons), C.A.C. -
GO 66/43 - Effective 16 Dec 42
Serial 977 18th Armoured Car Regiment (12th Manitoba Dragoons), C.A.C.
Authorized: GO 66/43 - Effective 16 Dec 42, Redesignated: CARO 6100 - Effective 3 Oct 45
Redesignated: Serial No. 977 - 18th Armoured Car Regiment (12th Manitoba Dragoons),
R.C. Armd. C. - CARO 6100 - Effective 3 Oct 45
Serial 977 18th Armoured Car Regiment (12th Manitoba Dragoons), R.C. Armd. C.
Authorized: CARO 6100 - Effective 3 Oct 45, Disbanded: GO 111/46 - Effective 31 Jan 46

1. The canvas title, 1943-1945.
2. The XII Manitoba Dragoons / Canada (two lines) is to my understanding post war.
3. The three line oyster on maroon title 18 Armoured Car Regiment / 12 D / Canada fits the official regimental designation from 1943 until disbandment. In 1946, the 12 Manitoba Dragoons carried on the same designation in the reserve army. In my opinion this title is a post war title. All photo evidence from the WW2 era shows the XII/MANITOBA DRAGOONS/CANADA pattern in use, either canvas or melton.
4. The yellow on green title fits the 1942 period designation, and has the same colours as the British army Reconnaisance Corps.

[boots and saddles]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Hi Ray, Here are some ideas about time periods from the order of battle for the Canadian army in WW2. (Mark Tonner, ON ACTIVE SERVICE)

Serial 977 18th (Manitoba) Reconnaissance Battalion, C.A.C.
Authorized: GO 260/41 - Effective 10 May 41, Converted & Redesignated: GO 132/42 - Effective 26 Jan 42
Converted & Redesignated: Serial No. 977 - 18th (Manitoba) Armoured Car Regiment, C.A.C. -
GO 132/42 - Effective 26 Jan 42
Serial 977 18th (Manitoba) Armoured Car Regiment, C.A.C.
Authorized: GO 132/42 - Effective 26 Jan 42, Redesignated: GO 66/43 - Effective 16 Dec 42
Redesignated: Serial No. 977 - 18th Armoured Car Regiment (12th Manitoba Dragoons), C.A.C. -
GO 66/43 - Effective 16 Dec 42
Serial 977 18th Armoured Car Regiment (12th Manitoba Dragoons), C.A.C.
Authorized: GO 66/43 - Effective 16 Dec 42, Redesignated: CARO 6100 - Effective 3 Oct 45
Redesignated: Serial No. 977 - 18th Armoured Car Regiment (12th Manitoba Dragoons),
R.C. Armd. C. - CARO 6100 - Effective 3 Oct 45
Serial 977 18th Armoured Car Regiment (12th Manitoba Dragoons), R.C. Armd. C.
Authorized: CARO 6100 - Effective 3 Oct 45, Disbanded: GO 111/46 - Effective 31 Jan 46

1. The canvas title, 1943-1945.
2. The XII Manitoba Dragoons / Canada (two lines) is to my understanding post war.
3. The three line oyster on maroon title 18 Armoured Car Regiment / 12 D / Canada fits the official regimental designation from 1943 until disbandment. In 1946, the 12 Manitoba Dragoons carried on the same designation in the reserve army. In my opinion this title is a post war title. All photo evidence from the WW2 era shows the XII/MANITOBA DRAGOONS/CANADA pattern in use, either canvas or melton.
4. The yellow on green title fits the 1942 period designation, and has the same colours as the British army Reconnaisance Corps.

Thanks Bill,You'vedone it again. Ray

[rubicon]

Hello everyone,
I bought this morning this cloth shoulder title for the XII Manitoba Dragoons which I think is a Canadian made. Shape and designation look like all the WW2 British made titles for this unit. I would think it is a war time Canadian made title. What do you think please? J-F