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  #1  
Old 19-04-23, 01:40 PM
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Default King's Own Scottish Borderers Officer

Gentlemen,

I would like to share this photograph of a King's Own Scottish Borderers officer wearing a Forage Cap (universal pattern) with Diced band of Regimental pattern and an Officers pattern Cap badge, close up illustrated.

Cheers
Hiram
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File Type: jpg rduc8gmw.jpg (17.7 KB, 106 views)
File Type: jpg New Book Badges Cropped33.jpg (71.9 KB, 131 views)
__________________
For Gold the merchant ploughs the main,The Farmer ploughs the Manor;But Glory is the Sodger's prize,The sodger's wealth is honor:The brave poor SODGER ne'er dispise,
Nor count him as a stranger; Remember he's his Country's stay,In day and hour of Danger.
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  #2  
Old 22-04-23, 09:55 AM
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Hi,
Out of interest I posted my standard officer capbadge hallmarked silver, which I purchased form from the regiment HQ in the 1990s .

Last edited by eddie; 28-12-23 at 09:34 PM.
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  #3  
Old 22-04-23, 12:02 PM
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Eddie,

That's a nice clean crisp badge with the Birmingham Hallmark for 1997.

The F&S HM I believe is for Fattorini & Sons Ltd who specialised in "medals, shields, trophies, cups & badges" which fits with the badge although as has been suggested it may be Firmin & Son.

For interest I have attached a scan with the details for Fattorini?

Regards
Gerry
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Last edited by Scottish Borderers; 23-04-23 at 07:01 AM.
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  #4  
Old 22-04-23, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottish Borderers View Post
Eddie,

That's a nice clean crisp badge with the Birmingham Hallmark for 1997.

The F&S HM I believe is for Fattorini & Sons Ltd who specialised in "medals, shields, trophies, cups & badges" which fits with the badge.

Regards
Gerry
F&S will be for Firmin&Sons
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  #5  
Old 23-04-23, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borderer View Post
Gentlemen,

I would like to share this photograph of a King's Own Scottish Borderers officer wearing a Forage Cap (universal pattern) with Diced band of Regimental pattern and an Officers pattern Cap badge, close up illustrated.

Cheers
Hiram
That is a lovely badge, KOSB officer badges being one of the nicer British Army officer badges. It is just a pity the crown appears to have parted company with the badge at some stage.
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  #6  
Old 23-04-23, 06:48 PM
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Hi Alex,
I agree with you on the KOSB officers badge being one of, if not the nicest, of officers badges in the British Army, but then again I am slightly biased

On that badge I illustrated I have owned it for a number of years, it is hall marked 1923 in Edinburgh, the crown has not actually come off as yet, it is a well known weak spot on this design, with only the ends of the thistle leaf's supporting the Royal Crest and it does get loose through time and you can clearly see it has seen service with the polishing/rubbing of the castle.
I have currently discussed with the jeweller who made my Sphinx soldering a small silver plate to the rear to support the Royal Crest, because I still wear this badge on Minden Day and other occasions.

warm wishes
Hiram
__________________
For Gold the merchant ploughs the main,The Farmer ploughs the Manor;But Glory is the Sodger's prize,The sodger's wealth is honor:The brave poor SODGER ne'er dispise,
Nor count him as a stranger; Remember he's his Country's stay,In day and hour of Danger.
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  #7  
Old 24-04-23, 07:06 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is online now
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Aah...good to know it hasn't actually fractured yet!
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  #8  
Old 24-04-23, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borderer View Post
Hi Alex,
I agree with you on the KOSB officers badge being one of, if not the nicest, of officers badges in the British Army, but then again I am slightly biased

On that badge I illustrated I have owned it for a number of years, it is hall marked 1923 in Edinburgh, the crown has not actually come off as yet, it is a well known weak spot on this design, with only the ends of the thistle leaf's supporting the Royal Crest and it does get loose through time and you can clearly see it has seen service with the polishing/rubbing of the castle.
I have currently discussed with the jeweller who made my Sphinx soldering a small silver plate to the rear to support the Royal Crest, because I still wear this badge on Minden Day and other occasions.

warm wishes
Hiram
Hi Hiram. Thought you may like to see a rather unusual silver/gilt wash Vic version I have - no idea why but Bosley says probably for a very senior officer? Also show images of my two HMS ones (Marks at ends of cross dated 1914 & 1922) plus a lovely heavy one by Jennens
Regards Denis
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File Type: jpg IMG_3120.jpg (64.3 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3121.jpg (67.9 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3124.jpg (81.3 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3125.jpg (97.1 KB, 19 views)
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  #9  
Old 24-04-23, 01:56 PM
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Denis,

The Badge illustrated is on display at the KOSB museum and has been taken from Hiram's book "Badges and Insignia of the King's Own Scottish Borderers".

1901-1904 Officers and Warrant Officers Kilmarnock Peaked Forage Cap Pattern Badge. This badge was worn on the Kilmarnock peaked forage cap when in barracks on home service and known as the Barracks Badge.

The badge was gilded, although on this badge the majority of the gilding has vanished. A thistle wreath, within the wreath a circlet pierced with designation ‘King’s Own Scottish Borderers’. Above the circlet a scroll pierced with motto, ‘In Veritate Religionis Confido’; the scroll is surmounted by an Imperial Crown Royal Crest. Over the circlet, the Cross of St Andrew in burnished silver. On the cross, the Castle of Edinburgh also in silver. On the wreath at the bottom of the circlet a scroll with the motto in relief, ‘Nisi Dominus Frustra’.

The Kilmarnock peaked forage cap was discontinued in 1904. Nevertheless, it continued to be worn by the Volunteer Battalions of the King’s Own Scottish Borderers.
(From Hiram's Book available from the KOSB Museum)
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  #10  
Old 24-04-23, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borderer View Post
Gentlemen,

I would like to share this photograph of a King's Own Scottish Borderers officer wearing a Forage Cap (universal pattern) with Diced band of Regimental pattern and an Officers pattern Cap badge, close up illustrated.

Cheers
Hiram
He’s almost certainly the Adjutant Hiram. All four of the Lowland regiments had their Adjutants wear this barracks dress of frock coat, trews and universal forage cap with special badge. The Cameronian’s wore a very dark green (darker than the other regular rifles) frogged patrol jacket instead. The frock coat was a very dark blue and double breasted. The Highland regiments Adjutants did not wear the frock coat and either wore a blue patrol jacket or a white drill jacket depending on the season.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 27-04-23 at 07:02 AM.
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  #11  
Old 25-04-23, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottish Borderers View Post
Denis,

The Badge illustrated is on display at the KOSB museum and has been taken from Hiram's book "Badges and Insignia of the King's Own Scottish Borderers".

1901-1904 Officers and Warrant Officers Kilmarnock Peaked Forage Cap Pattern Badge. This badge was worn on the Kilmarnock peaked forage cap when in barracks on home service and known as the Barracks Badge.

The badge was gilded, although on this badge the majority of the gilding has vanished. A thistle wreath, within the wreath a circlet pierced with designation ‘King’s Own Scottish Borderers’. Above the circlet a scroll pierced with motto, ‘In Veritate Religionis Confido’; the scroll is surmounted by an Imperial Crown Royal Crest. Over the circlet, the Cross of St Andrew in burnished silver. On the cross, the Castle of Edinburgh also in silver. On the wreath at the bottom of the circlet a scroll with the motto in relief, ‘Nisi Dominus Frustra’.

The Kilmarnock peaked forage cap was discontinued in 1904. Nevertheless, it continued to be worn by the Volunteer Battalions of the King’s Own Scottish Borderers.
(From Hiram's Book available from the KOSB Museum)
Hi Gerry, Thank you for this very interesting info and pleased that I now know who wore this badge. I am surprised Bosley did not know this with his extensive knowledge. Regards Denis
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  #12  
Old 25-04-23, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Scottish Borderers View Post
Denis,

The Badge illustrated is on display at the KOSB museum and has been taken from Hiram's book "Badges and Insignia of the King's Own Scottish Borderers".

1901-1904 Officers and Warrant Officers Kilmarnock Peaked Forage Cap Pattern Badge. This badge was worn on the Kilmarnock peaked forage cap when in barracks on home service and known as the Barracks Badge.

The badge was gilded, although on this badge the majority of the gilding has vanished. A thistle wreath, within the wreath a circlet pierced with designation ‘King’s Own Scottish Borderers’. Above the circlet a scroll pierced with motto, ‘In Veritate Religionis Confido’; the scroll is surmounted by an Imperial Crown Royal Crest. Over the circlet, the Cross of St Andrew in burnished silver. On the cross, the Castle of Edinburgh also in silver. On the wreath at the bottom of the circlet a scroll with the motto in relief, ‘Nisi Dominus Frustra’.

The Kilmarnock peaked forage cap was discontinued in 1904. Nevertheless, it continued to be worn by the Volunteer Battalions of the King’s Own Scottish Borderers.
(From Hiram's Book available from the KOSB Museum)
I’m puzzled by the description “Kilmarnock peaked forage cap”, which matches no headdress description in dress regulations for officers of the army and I’m wondering if you’re referring to the “round forage cap” issued from 1880 until it was replaced by a so-called naval pattern cap (essentially a forage cap where the top dimensions exceed by two or more inches the cap band) between 1900 and 1904. An image of the round forage cap for KOSB can be seen below, and the entire range of regimental variations here: http://www.uniformology.com/FORAGE-CAPS-01.html
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File Type: jpeg IMG_7488.jpeg (94.3 KB, 3 views)

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 27-04-23 at 10:59 AM.
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  #13  
Old 25-04-23, 05:51 PM
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Good afternoon Gentlemen,

There are a number of question to be answered. Firstly on the 'Kilmarnock' Forage-Cap/Pork-Pie hat, (as it was also some times called by soldiers in the Pork-Pie region of the UK) just as the Scottish Soldiers referred to it as the 'Kilmarnock', it was often referred to as a 'Kilmarnock' because it took its name from the Kilmarnock makers who were a very large supplier to the Army. But it should not be confused by the later head-dress 'Kilmarnock Bonnet' adopted by Lowland Regiments in 1904. I refer members to the Book 'Scottish Military Uniforms' by Robert Wilkinson-Latham printed in 1975, I have a first addition, page 55, which endorses this, it was commonly known and referred to in the King's Own Scottish Borderers as the Kilmarnock Forage Cap and that's from our historical regimental records, inside knowledge.

The photograph in the first post of this thread, I can assure members is not of the Adjutant, and I like a few people also thought this at first, until we came across this photograph in the regiments archives. The young officer is a 2Lt pictured in 1907 in fact he died in 1909 overseas and is buried there. I did some research to discover why there is no mention in the 1900 Officers Dress Reg's for KOSB officers to wear the Forage Cap, after a bit of searching I brought up the 1904 Officers Dress Reg's and Page 2, Para 9 Forage Caps, (Infantry Pattern) bottom of the page RS, RSF, King's Own Scottish Borderers - Diced band, regimental pattern. Then page 78 of the same regulation Badges The KOSB On the Puggaree, Cloth Forage Cap, or Glengarry. The Regimental Badge is described with a foot note also worn on the Bonnet, there is no mention of any special badge, therefore, officers were authorised in the 1904 to wear the forage cap in dress regulation 1904. Where and When would be defined with in Regimental Dress Regulation which are signed off by the Trustees of the Regiment and the Regimental Council.

Wearing of the Kilmarnock Forage Cap as illustrated in the photograph of the Regimental Military Band Sergeant is well after 1901, and the RSM and Adjutant 1901 watercolour from a photograph.

I hope this helps members, there are many anomalies on dress its regulations, also name of equipment with in each regiments by known each individual regiments history or having served in the regiment do these little snippets of historical facts come to the fore.
Each day is a school day.

Kind regards
Hiram
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Band Sgt1 KOSB.jpg (53.7 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg KOSB39.jpg (67.3 KB, 13 views)
__________________
For Gold the merchant ploughs the main,The Farmer ploughs the Manor;But Glory is the Sodger's prize,The sodger's wealth is honor:The brave poor SODGER ne'er dispise,
Nor count him as a stranger; Remember he's his Country's stay,In day and hour of Danger.

Last edited by Borderer; 25-04-23 at 07:45 PM. Reason: explination
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  #14  
Old 25-04-23, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
He’s almost certainly the Adjutant Hiram. All four of the Lowland regiments had their Adjutants wear this barracks dress of frock coat, trews and universal forage cap with special badge. The Cameronian’s were included and the frock coat was a very dark blue even for them. The Highland regiments Adjutants did not wear the frock coat and either wore a blue patrol jacket or a white drill jacket depending on the season.
Toby,
The photo in question is that of 2nd Lt Arthur Cecil Braithwaite who died in Egypt in 1909. It has always been perceived that the small badge being worn belonged to the Adjt the photo of the 2nd Lt dispells that theory.

I have attached a second image of Capt Wilkinson later Lt Col and is a good example of the headress.

Regards
Gerry
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File Type: jpg thumbnail_IMG_0355.jpg (60.6 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg Lt Col Wilkinson.jpg (39.8 KB, 25 views)

Last edited by Scottish Borderers; 25-04-23 at 06:58 PM.
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  #15  
Old 26-04-23, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Borderer View Post
Good afternoon Gentlemen,

There are a number of question to be answered. Firstly on the 'Kilmarnock' Forage-Cap/Pork-Pie hat, (as it was also some times called by soldiers in the Pork-Pie region of the UK) just as the Scottish Soldiers referred to it as the 'Kilmarnock', it was often referred to as a 'Kilmarnock' because it took its name from the Kilmarnock makers who were a very large supplier to the Army. But it should not be confused by the later head-dress 'Kilmarnock Bonnet' adopted by Lowland Regiments in 1904. I refer members to the Book 'Scottish Military Uniforms' by Robert Wilkinson-Latham printed in 1975, I have a first addition, page 55, which endorses this, it was commonly known and referred to in the King's Own Scottish Borderers as the Kilmarnock Forage Cap and that's from our historical regimental records, inside knowledge.

The photograph in the first post of this thread, I can assure members is not of the Adjutant, and I like a few people also thought this at first, until we came across this photograph in the regiments archives. The young officer is a 2Lt pictured in 1907 in fact he died in 1909 overseas and is buried there. I did some research to discover why there is no mention in the 1900 Officers Dress Reg's for KOSB officers to wear the Forage Cap, after a bit of searching I brought up the 1904 Officers Dress Reg's and Page 2, Para 9 Forage Caps, (Infantry Pattern) bottom of the page RS, RSF, King's Own Scottish Borderers - Diced band, regimental pattern. Then page 78 of the same regulation Badges The KOSB On the Puggaree, Cloth Forage Cap, or Glengarry. The Regimental Badge is described with a foot note also worn on the Bonnet, there is no mention of any special badge, therefore, officers were authorised in the 1904 to wear the forage cap in dress regulation 1904. Where and When would be defined with in Regimental Dress Regulation which are signed off by the Trustees of the Regiment and the Regimental Council.

Wearing of the Kilmarnock Forage Cap as illustrated in the photograph of the Regimental Military Band Sergeant is well after 1901, and the RSM and Adjutant 1901 watercolour from a photograph.

I hope this helps members, there are many anomalies on dress its regulations, also name of equipment with in each regiments by known each individual regiments history or having served in the regiment do these little snippets of historical facts come to the fore.
Each day is a school day.

Kind regards
Hiram
Hiram thank you for your interesting reply. Purely by virtue of a large collection of Dress Regulations for officers of the British Army, I was aware of most of what you have explained, although I do not, of course, pretend to have your knowledge of the discrete regimental dress practices of the King’s Own Scottish Borderers and so I can only comment about the more generic dress aspects of British Army officers during the period concerned.

As you have pointed out the universal frock coat was introduced in the 1904 iteration of Dress Regulations. It was foisted upon the Lowland Scottish regiments of the line and not particularly well received, as although the 1st, 21st and 25th Regiments had all had previous experience of the 1840s to 1860s version of that garment, it had been at a time when only Highland regiments were wearing upper and lower garments differing from their English, Welsh and Irish counterparts. All that had changed in 1881, when all three lowland regiments were obliged for the first time to wear full dress with particular Scottish styling, although battalion pipers had done so for some time. Nevertheless, it made the readoption of a frock coat more problematic given that there were other, more Scottish clothing options, for day-to-day dress within the three regiments.

It is worth touching upon the intended purpose of the frock coat, which during the earlier period had become very popular. First and foremost it was ‘undress’ and intended as wear for routine duties in barracks, on occasions where a smarter garment was required for such duties as officer of the day, or week (the latter for field officers), orderly room (summary dealing of disciplinary infringements) and visiting the guard at night. It had replaced the scarlet version of the serge frock (aka patrol jacket) leaving just the blue serge equivalent (patrol jacket), when once their had been both and, unlike the frocks, was routinely worn with collar badges, swords, carriages (slings) and silk sashes**. As a general rule it was often worn when the men were in scarlets, but not review order. This change took place two years after drab khaki service dress had been introduced for field training and operations in temperate climates, and so the men were less often in scarlet. Nevertheless, the end result was each Lowland Scots officer being required to purchase five outfits; review order, mess dress, undress frock coat, undress serge frock (blue patrol) and drab service dress.

In other regiments regulated to wear frock coats between 1904 and the outbreak of WW1, it became a common order of dress for formal photographs and can often be seen in portraits and group images of the mess. In the summer the headress of universal forage cap was supplemented during the official summer months by a white cover stretched over the top. In the Scottish regiments this would have left only the dicing on their caps showing, and the paucity of images of Lowland Scots regiments wearing the frock coats and caps with or without covers in regimental groups is strong circumstantial evidence that this form of undress was unpopular and only sparingly used within those regiments, including the KOSB.

Nevertheless, as has been pointed out there are images showing individual officers, and looking at the three regiments across the piece it is clear that the frock coats were, as a minimum, quite a common form of dress within battalion orderly rooms, and that the commanding officer and adjutant wore them for a number of their formal duties in barracks. They cannot have been a very comfortable dress to wear when seated and the requirement for sword and sash would have made them fiddly when compared with the alternative of blue patrols. It seems then that the photos we see of KOSB (and other Lowland Scots) officers are largely confined to individual portraits and the occasional appearance of adjutants and commanding officers. The universal frock coat remained as home service undress in the next, 1911 iteration of Dress Regulations, but had disappeared by the time of its replacement in 1934, other than the special pattern for general officer’s distinguished by dark blue velvet collar and cuffs.

Turning to the round forage cap, this was replaced for officers by the universal pattern (described in early days as the naval or staff pattern) in 1900 for officers of most regiments, whereas a replacement for the same cap worn by ‘battalion staff’ sergeants did not begin to appear until 1905. It was quite common across the Army for warrant officers and other senior battalion staff to cling on to these caps as long as possible and they are sometimes still seen as late as 1907#.

NB. Below are some images of the universal frock coat in general use. If anyone is able to show any group photos of Lowland Scots wearing that form of undress (i.e. officers’ mess or battalion officers portraits) I’d be very grateful to see them posted here, as they are exceedingly rare (I’ve never seen one in 50-years) and I’m yet to be convinced that they were worn much beyond orderly room.

**the three Lowland Scots regiments wore their gold laced waistbelts in lieu of sashes.
#in non Scots regiments due to an intense dislike of the Brodrick cap replacement.
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Last edited by Toby Purcell; 29-04-23 at 04:38 PM.
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