Finalised Layout: Precedence at 1918 finalised

[TomPC]

Originally Posted by Hoot

Tom, the Corps of Army Schoolmasters wore the crown and cypher badge the same as the MPSC. The Royal Defence Corps, the Labour Corps and the Non-Combatant Corps were all war raised units so I would class them as Regular Army.

Hi Hoot,

As in my post to Manchesters (one above) I do not believe all war-raised units were regular. I find it hard to believe the NCC in particular was a regular unit. Members could only ever be privates with no possibility of promotion (their officers and NCOs were attached from other regular units) and did not carry a weapon. They did not get paid the same as regular soldiers, were denied the army-wide pay increase of 1919 and did not receive the same amount of leave. They were also kept in service long after other units had been sent home and uniquely did not receive a war gratuity. I think these factors stop them being viewed as regular in either sense of the word. That is not to say that I don't respect their views or their contribution. Furthermore this is just my argument - it's not definitive. But I'd need to see some sort of evidence to change my mind.

Thanks for the info on the Schoolmaster's badge - tricky to display them alongside the MPSC unless I use the wreathed version to differentiate the two. I'm never sure how the Norfolk Yeomanry managed to differentiate themselves from the MPSC - surely the badge is identical!

Pic 1: Norfolk Yeo; 2. MPSC type 1; 3. MPSC type 2

[TomPC]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I would place it after the ASC.

The PT corps were wearing the swords badge in 1918. I used to work in a place with a huge group photo of the PT Corps in 1918 and the badge was in use.

Hi Alan,

Thanks - I just need to find out what date in 1918 it was issued. My collection is strategically dated 31 March 1918.

STOP PRESS: The name change from Army Gymnastic Staff to Army Physical Training Staff came in December 1918 (see https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...=rep1&type=pdf). I just need to know if that's when the badge was issued.

[TomPC]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I would place it after the ASC.

Hi Alan,

After a great deal of thought, I've decided to omit the Army Remount Service altogether.

Under the principle of inheritance (the rule that places the RFC after the RE and the Tank Corps after the MGC) I agree that - if included - it probably should go after the ASC. But at the same time I don't think it is a unit in its own right, if it's actually a component of another corps already featured.

I was sorely tempted to place it after the Cavalry in the same way it appears in monthly 1918 Army Lists as my general principle is that I should follow the Kings Regs of 1912/14 as closely as possible and then follow its additional rule: "...regiments ... shown collectively therein [in the table] take precedence amongst themselves as laid down in the monthly Army List."

Anyway - decision made. Omit!

[TomPC]

AMENDMENT TO LAYOUT

1. As mentioned above, I will be removing the Army Remount Services as they are not a unit in their own right - they are a part of the ASC. (In much the same way as I wouldn't include a badge for Chestnut Troop as well as the RHA - if indeed either of them had unit-specific badges in 1918, which they didn't.)

2. I will be reinstating the 5th Lancers to follow the 4th Hussars (instead of the 17th Lancers) because King's Regs 1912/14 state in the Order of Precedence section:

"...regiments ... shown collectively therein [in the table] take precedence amongst themselves as laid down in the monthly Army List."

In other words the KRs just show that Cavalry is higher in precedence than Royal Artillery. You have to refer to the army lists to see what order the cavalry units should appear.
And in the Army Lists the 5th follows the 4th. Case closed.

I'm a bit sad because I enjoyed the history of the 5th Lancers' mutiny, the unusual ordering of 16th/5th and the seeming irrationality of it all!

[Hoot]

Originally Posted by TomPC

Hi Hoot,

As in my post to Manchesters (one above) I do not believe all war-raised units were regular. I find it hard to believe the NCC in particular was a regular unit. Members could only ever be privates with no possibility of promotion (their officers and NCOs were attached from other regular units) and did not carry a weapon. They did not get paid the same as regular soldiers, were denied the army-wide pay increase of 1919 and did not receive the same amount of leave. They were also kept in service long after other units had been sent home and uniquely did not receive a war gratuity. I think these factors stop them being viewed as regular in either sense of the word. That is not to say that I don't respect their views or their contribution. Furthermore this is just my argument - it's not definitive. But I'd need to see some sort of evidence to change my mind.

Thanks for the info on the Schoolmaster's badge - tricky to display them alongside the MPSC unless I use the wreathed version to differentiate the two. I'm never sure how the Norfolk Yeomanry managed to differentiate themselves from the MPSC - surely the badge is identical!

Pic 1: Norfolk Yeo; 2. MPSC type 1; 3. MPSC type 2

Tom, the Norfolk Yeomanry badge was much larger than the MPSC badge and had a more slender looking cypher. The badge with the wreath is a bit of a mystery and I have yet to see evidence of it being worn by the MPSC despite what any reference books may say.

[TomPC]

Originally Posted by Hoot

Tom, the Norfolk Yeomanry badge was much larger than the MPSC badge and had a more slender looking cypher. The badge with the wreath is a bit of a mystery and I have yet to see evidence of it being worn by the MPSC despite what any reference books may say.

Thank you. I agree that it's disputed.

[leigh kitchen]

It has been held by some on forum that "MPSC 1" of post no. 16 (the Crown, cypher and wreath badge) was worn by The Army Corps of Schoolmasters.

[TomPC]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

It has been held by some on forum that "MPSC 1" of post no. 16 (the Crown, cypher and wreath badge) was worn by The Army Corps of Schoolmasters.

Oh crikey. Well at least if I feature them both the only problem will be which order they're in.

[Hoot]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

It has been held by some on forum that "MPSC 1" of post no. 16 (the Crown, cypher and wreath badge) was worn by The Army Corps of Schoolmasters.

Yes, if I remember correctly, I was one of them I think.

[leigh kitchen]

I may be unleashing a red herring, I remember the point being raised in at least one thread concerning MPSC, Schoolmaster, Recruiter, and probably Norfolk Yeomanry and Barrack Warden badges but not what the outcome of discussion was.

A couple of threads including MPSC

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...highlight=MPSC

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=14411

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by Hoot

Yes, if I remember correctly, I was one of them I think.

Yes, I've found the thread, these MPSC, Norfolk Yeomary etc threads always get interesting.

A suggestion was that chap was likely too scruffy to be MPSC and more likely to be a Schoolmaster.

[TomPC]

Originally Posted by Hoot

The Royal Defence Corps, formed in March 1916, should take precedence over the Labour Corps, formed in February 1917. Three other units need to be added as well, the Army Gymnastic Staff, the Corps of Army Schoolmasters and the Non-Combatant Corps.

Further to our discussions (in this and other threads) about whether the school of Musketry was a Department/Corps/Service and latterly regarding inclusion of Gymnastic Staff I have discovered that they were not Depts/Corps/Services - they were in fact Establishments.

The AL Mar 1918 lists the following (sorts of) institutions under "Establishments - Educational and Training" (I've not listed them all)

Ordnance College
School of Military Engineering
School of Musketry, Hythe
School of Electric Lighting
RMC Sandhurst
RMA Woolwich
Physical and Bayonet Training (HQ: Army Gymnastic Staff)

I will therefore be dropping both of them from the list of Corps.

[Hoot]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Yes, I've found the thread, these MPSC, Norfolk Yeomary etc threads always get interesting.

A suggestion was that chap was likely too scruffy to be MPSC and more likely to be a Schoolmaster.

I still hold that opinion.

[Alan O]

I have done quite a bit of reading on this and this is very interesting

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprin...6/1/283368.pdf

I would agree with Hoot that your Sgt is most likely to be a pre-1920 assistant Army Schoolmaster serving with an Essex Bn. The schoolmasters were WOs and the master title needs to be thought of in context of soldier education in a regt not a military school. As such the presence of one NCO in a battalion would be likely - far more likely than a lone MPSC man,

From 1920 the AEC is formed with a new cap badge,

[TomPC]

Working through the March 1918 Army List one comes to the WARRANT OFFICERS section at 2259 (or page 2044 if you're using a pdf or web verisons).

All the warrant officers are listed under the following classifications.

1. STAFF - Staff or Garrison Sgt-Majs
2. EDUCATIONAL - 1st & 2nd Class Army Schoolmasters
3. REGIMENTAL - WOs in each regiment of the Cav, RA, RE, RFC, Guards, Infantry, ASC, RAMC, AVC
4. DEPARTMENTAL - WOs in the AOC, APC, C of M Police, MPSC

This suggests to me that the Army Schoolmasters at this point in history are considered neither Regimental nor Departmental and thus don't belong in the Precedence of Regiments, Arms, Corps and Departments at Mar 1918.