ww1 royal fusiliers badges / title

[verdun]

hello

i have those badges coming directly from a french veteran 's family they have been kept for many years in the soldier's trunk as souvenirs, they were in a postal enveloppe with a french caption that says:

"souvenirs given by English soldiers at their passage at Chagny station on January 7, 1915 they come from the bottom of the Himalaya and have been on their way for four months"

so i assume that the french soldier met soldiers of the third battalion of the royal fusiliers regiment that was stationed in lucknow in India in 1914


I have two questions for which I have some difficulty in finding clear answers, my level of English is not always sufficient to well understand the subtleties of the English army in 1914!!!


first
what was the connection in 1915 between the Third regular Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers and the Third Battalion RF "city of london" of the TF ?
they seem to have different paths in 1915 the first one landed in Le Havre mid january 1915 the second one landed in Marseille in the beginning of january 1915

two

why two pattern of badges were given ,one lugged one slidered. i read somewhere on the forum that units overseas stationed kept lugged badges

last attachment is a picture of the french soldier, he was a cavalryman he survived the war and was awarded the legion of honor for military service in 1921

thank in advance for your help and comments

best regards from France
christophe

[Alan O]

The Royal Fusiliers had 4 Battalions of Regular soldiers numbered 1st-4th. Most regts only had 2 Regular Battalions. Also unlike other infantry units they did not have numbered Territorial battalions ie 5th, 6th etc.

There was however the City of London TF Regt whose 26 battalions were all Territorial. Their 1st-4th battalions were affiliated to the Royal Fusiliers hence the title and wore their cap badge.

So you have 1st -4th Battalions of both Regulars and Territorials. Totally separate units but wearing the same cap badge. However the shoulder title were different and yours is the TF London Regt so was not worn in India.

As for the lugged badge it was first worn in 1902 and then replaced in 1903 by a slidered version when a new hat design was introduced. However in India they kept the old side cap up to 1914 so the lugged badge remained in use there.

[verdun]

thank you sir for your precious help

"However the shoulder title were different and yours is the TF London Regt so was not worn in India"


that's what I can not understand, why a TF title was given while the french veteran seems to have met soldiers coming from India

may be that the veteran was the victim of misinformation, especially as the date seems to go in the direction of a meeting with TF soldiers

in attachment
another TF title unfortunatly broken and uncomplete found in the enveloppe, the design is slightly different from the first one

Have a good week end
regards
christophe

[Frank Kelley]

Very nice, the Royal Fusiliers was a fine regiment, that took a prominent part in the Great War, on more than one front, but, who is the dapper French soldier in the photograph, which I very much like?
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by verdun

hello

i have those badges coming directly from a french veteran 's family they have been kept for many years in the soldier's trunk as souvenirs, they were in a postal enveloppe with a french caption that says:

"souvenirs given by English soldiers at their passage at Chagny station on January 7, 1915 they come from the bottom of the Himalaya and have been on their way for four months"

so i assume that the french soldier met soldiers of the third battalion of the royal fusiliers regiment that was stationed in lucknow in India in 1914


I have two questions for which I have some difficulty in finding clear answers, my level of English is not always sufficient to well understand the subtleties of the English army in 1914!!!


first
what was the connection in 1915 between the Third regular Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers and the Third Battalion RF "city of london" of the TF ?
they seem to have different paths in 1915 the first one landed in Le Havre mid january 1915 the second one landed in Marseille in the beginning of january 1915

two

why two pattern of badges were given ,one lugged one slidered. i read somewhere on the forum that units overseas stationed kept lugged badges

last attachment is a picture of the french soldier, he was a cavalryman he survived the war and was awarded the legion of honor for military service in 1921

thank in advance for your help and comments

best regards from France
christophe

[Toby Purcell]

Hi

Originally Posted by verdun

thank you sir for your precious help

"However the shoulder title were different and yours is the TF London Regt so was not worn in India"


that's what I can not understand, why a TF title was given while the french veteran seems to have met soldiers coming from India

may be that the veteran was the victim of misinformation, especially as the date seems to go in the direction of a meeting with TF soldiers

in attachment
another TF title unfortunatly broken and uncomplete found in the enveloppe, the design is slightly different from the first one

Have a good week end
regards
christophe

Just to remind you Christophe, the TF were citizen soldiers and did not mobilise until 1914. Only a very few TF battalions deployed to France & Flanders before the end of 1914, with most arriving in the various theatres of war in 1915. In part this was because each individual TF soldier had to Volunteer for service outside Britain (the TF was primarily home defence) until conscription began in 1916, and not all agreed to do this, often because of family commitments and fear for loss of their civilian employment. Consequently it took some TF battalions longer than others to gather sufficient volunteers to make up a full strength battalion fit to deploy, while at the same time the home defence only men were organised in second and third line battalions of the same unit.

Additionally only regular army soldiers (professionals) were in India when the war began and so it must have been a returning regular battalion that your Veteran Francais met at the railway station. Most of the regular battalions serving in overseas garrisons in 1914 were gradually replaced/relieved by TF battalions of previously part-time soldiers from home (Britain). Confusion can be caused because only the shoulder titles were different between the TF London Regiment battalions that wore the Royal Fusiliers cap badge, and the professional soldiers of the Royal Fusiliers regular army battalions, who wore the exact same headdress insignia. Therefore the shoulder title that you have, assuming it is from 1915, must have originated with a TF soldier deploying and not returning. I hope that this explanation is clear and helpful.

[verdun]

"Very nice, the Royal Fusiliers was a fine regiment, that took a prominent part in the Great War, on more than one front, but, who is the dapper French soldier in the photograph, which I very much like"




the french soldier , named FERNAND JULIEN, was a former "chasseur d'afrique" ( french africa light cavalry), veteran of war of morocco ( 1912 medal near his war cross on the photo), mobilized in 1914 in the 1st "chasseur à cheval" (french metropolitan light cavalry), transferred in 1916 he finished the war as a dispatch rider in a "cuirassier "regiment( heavy french cavalry that uses cuirass until 1915)

commemorative war of morocco medal
war cross
legion of honor

it is a 1915 photo

British soldiers gave him these badges in 1915

regards christophe

[verdun]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Hi

Just to remind you Christophe, the TF were citizen soldiers and did not mobilise until 1914. Only a very few TF battalions deployed to France & Flanders before the end of 1914, with most arriving in the various theatres of war in 1915. In part this was because each individual TF soldier had to Volunteer for service outside Britain (the TF was primarily home defence) until conscription began in 1916, and not all agreed to do this, often because of family commitments and fear for loss of their civilian employment. Consequently it took some TF battalions longer than others to gather sufficient volunteers to make up a full strength battalion fit to deploy, while at the same time the home defence only men were organised in second and third line battalions of the same unit.

Additionally only regular army soldiers (professionals) were in India when the war began and so it must have been a returning regular battalion that your Veteran Francais met at the railway station. Most of the regular battalions serving in overseas garrisons in 1914 were gradually replaced/relieved by TF battalions of previously part-time soldiers from home (Britain). Confusion can be caused because only the shoulder titles were different between the TF London Regiment battalions that wore the Royal Fusiliers cap badge, and the professional soldiers of the Royal Fusiliers regular army battalions, who wore the exact same headdress insignia. Therefore the shoulder title that you have, assuming it is from 1915, must have originated with a TF soldier deploying and not returning. I hope that this explanation is clear and helpful.

thank you very much very helpful

regards christophe

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Christophe, sorry for late reply,
I think it is a really superb photograph, his regiments are interesting, yes indeed, I've looked closely at a number of accounts written by his British counterparts in 1914 who make special mention of their comrades in the Cuirassier's, I suppose they would certainly be hard to miss.
I find it hard to understand why they went to war dressed like that, all the hot, bright, sunny weather, they would have been certainly very reflective and far from bullet proof.
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by verdun

the french soldier , named FERNAND JULIEN, was a former "chasseur d'afrique" ( french africa light cavalry), veteran of war of morocco ( 1912 medal near his war cross on the photo), mobilized in 1914 in the 1st "chasseur à cheval" (french metropolitan light cavalry), transferred in 1916 he finished the war as a dispatch rider in a "cuirassier "regiment( heavy french cavalry that uses cuirass until 1915)

commemorative war of morocco medal
war cross
legion of honor

it is a 1915 photo

British soldiers gave him these badges in 1915

regards christophe

[verdun]

"I find it hard to understand why they went to war dressed like that, all the hot, bright, sunny weather, they would have been certainly very reflective and far from bullet proof."


bright cuirasses, red pants,multicolored uniforms .... indeed 1914 french soldiers were hard to miss , especially for german army .............

it appears that some cuirassiers urinated on their armor to accelerate the oxidation and make them less visible .May be a legend but why not, all is possible with french army!

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Christophe,
Yes, I think there was certainly a large degree of symbolism in the French Army, but, I would never have made the grave mistake of underestimating them, in the way that wretched Falkenhayn did, he appears to really have believed in himself to the point of denial and expected to bleed the French to death at Verdun.
Notwithstanding, I think it is very important never to forget the appalling number of French casualties.
Regards again, Frank

[Frank Kelley]

Do you have a favourite Royal Fusiliers battalion, Christophe?
I suppose mine would have to be the founder members of the original Sportsmen.

[High Wood]

I think that there is a clear explanation for the wording on the envelope even if the legend is slightly confused.

This from Brigadier James:

London Regiment. 1/3rd (City of London) Battalion. (Royal Fusiliers). 4th August 1914 to war station guarding railway Basingstoke to Eastleigh. 4th September 1914 to Malta and record same as 1/2nd Bn. (2nd January 1915 sailed from Malta to France arriving Marseilles 6th January). 10th February 1915 to Garwhal Bde. Meerut Division. 17th February 1915 to Dehra Dun Bde, Meerut Division. 4th November 1915 to 139th Bde,

So the 1/3rd (City of London) Battalion. (Royal Fusiliers) arrived in France from Malta and were attached to an Indian Division that had at least one brigade from the foothills of the Himalayas i.e. The Dehra Dun Brigade.

[verdun]

Originally Posted by High Wood

I think that there is a clear explanation for the wording on the envelope even if the legend is slightly confused.

This from Brigadier James:

London Regiment. 1/3rd (City of London) Battalion. (Royal Fusiliers). 4th August 1914 to war station guarding railway Basingstoke to Eastleigh. 4th September 1914 to Malta and record same as 1/2nd Bn. (2nd January 1915 sailed from Malta to France arriving Marseilles 6th January). 10th February 1915 to Garwhal Bde. Meerut Division. 17th February 1915 to Dehra Dun Bde, Meerut Division. 4th November 1915 to 139th Bde,

So the 1/3rd (City of London) Battalion. (Royal Fusiliers) arrived in France from Malta and were attached to an Indian Division that had at least one brigade from the foothills of the Himalayas i.e. The Dehra Dun Brigade.

hello
thank you very much for informations
regards
christophe

[verdun]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Do you have a favourite Royal Fusiliers battalion, Christophe?
I suppose mine would have to be the founder members of the original Sportsmen.

hello

very nice title! but sorry for my ignorance what's "the original Sportsmen"?? pals btn?

[magpie]

Recruiting poster for the sports men's battalions.