17th Lancers

[Alan O]

Have you rung the regtl PRI and asked who supplies them?

Tele: 01748 873218

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Have you rung the regtl PRI and asked who supplies them?

Tele: 01748 873218

I shall...

[GriffMJ]

Done...... TKS make the QRL Other Ranks bronze Motto..... the "FIRMIN ONDON" is a duffer So its the LB&BCo type of ORs Motto..... two reserved and on their way to me (thanks Alan)

[Robthereiver]

Hello
I've made a few enquires and briefly this is the result

The QRL have apparently had a bronzed O/R's Motto available from their PRI since the Mid 90's ? when it was worn on exercise/ranges, but it seems wear was intermittent and in/out of favour. It's wear was dependant on the RSM of the time.

Currently on its recent return it is worn on the beret when out of camp, on exercise, ops, active service etc. seemly relegating the use of the standard wm motto for wear on the dress cap and beret in barracks.

Whilst, on Herrick, the Beret is seldom worn only on Ramp Parades or vigil, 99% of the time the floppy hat is worn, and at lease one individual I know unofficially wore a TRF on his.

Its also worth mentioning that the 17/21L had a subdued gunmetal Motto that was worn in the 80's on excerise, NI tours etc. again it was a private purchase and quite a scarce item now.

I hope that's of interest.

Rob

[GriffMJ]

Rob

Have you got an image of this infamous "Gun-metal" Motto?

There were two types officially issued for NI in the 1980s, Phil (Lancer17) has them direct from the Regiment at time of issue (with accompanying letters). The "Gun-metal" is in fact a bronze colour (LB&BCo)..... and there is a blackened version as well (by Gaunt). The black is white metal base (Gaunt) with the colours applied with longer sliders than normal.... identical to the chrome Motto we see from Gaunt (with long and short sliders).

There is also a blackened AA by Gaunt (with a long slider and a proper black AA finish) ...see below; also the blackened (Gaunt) white metal long & short slider; also the LB&BCo Bronze (or "Gun Metal")

* I should have the "TKS" bronze version any day now Is it just going to be the LB&BC bronze seen below or will it be marked "TKS"?

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Rob

Have you got an image of this infamous "Gun-metal" Motto?

Griff

Not sure about infamous? but I have a Motto which came from an ex serviceman from the 17/21L see images. This I am told was the official version of their blackened 'Motto'.
Which has been described to me a 'gun-metal' in reference I think to its colour, a Blue-Black, rather than what it is made of.
I think its basically a gm Motto with a specialist coating. You could argue its black bronze I suppose, but it appears to differ from the ones you've posted IMO.

Rob

[GriffMJ]

Rob

Excellent (and thank you), well this goes some way to confirming my thoughts on one particular motto and its mark (see below). The "FIRMIN & SONS" mark is from the 1980s and this ties in nicely with the very grubby bronze (Gun-metal).... I have put up the 1980's AA with the same mark. We do appear to be collecting a good few coloured Mottoes post 1980 :0) Its starting to look like a good mix on procurement - Gaunt/LB&BCo/Firmin - a lucky dip at the stores/PRI?

Your Firmin "Bronze" (Gun-Metal) appears to be the same colour as the LB&BCo "Bronze" (Gun-Metal) that Phil has. I am sure that the grubby makers marked one below would clean to the same colour as yours. I didnt pay the £70 odd quid it sold for on eBay last year.... another will appear I am sure.

* Just for fun I have added in the Officers silver plate version of the same.

[Robthereiver]

Griff

Glad to be of help.

However, I disagree that the Motto I posted is from a 'Firmin' die IMO, it's close granted ....but no cigar ends of bones, teeth, and general definition are IMO points of difference.
Saying that I have no idea who made it, except that its maybe of German manufacture?, something to consider perhaps, as the regiment was there for sometime.

Rob

[GriffMJ]

Rob

We will agree to disagree at that point then

Show me a "White Metal" other Ranks pre 1960 of that Motto?

The graphic below illustrates what I think is the case. Factory acquisitions have played their part.

* FIRMIN also make the "J.R.GAUNT LONDON LTD." post 1990 using the post 1960 Gaunt die.

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Rob

We will agree to disagree at that point then

Show me a "White Metal" other Ranks pre 1960 of that Motto?

The graphic below illustrates what I think is the case. Factory acquisitions have played their part.

* FIRMIN also make the "J.R.GAUNT LONDON LTD." post 1990 using the post 1960 Gaunt die.

Griff

Firstly, I feel should have qualified my disagreement, in that I didn't think the bronzed Firmin Motto you put under mine as comparison was a good match, and still don't, maybe its the image.

However, you prompted me to refer to my collection of Motto's which I am grateful for, my 'Gunmetal' Motto is a very good, if not an exact match IMO to a 'Firmin' Anodised Motto I have, so you are indeed correct
I like your graphic timeline by the way.

A few other Motto's which may be of interest:

Also I have discovered I appear to have two anodised Motto's both London badge & button Co, they differ in colour, on one the name reads down the slider, and one up? is there any significance in this, perhaps date wise?

It also appears I have two wm QRL private purchases dating from c2000 are you already familiar with those? I can post images later if not.

Lastly, some images of a belt I acquired many years ago which I though might interest yourself and other members.
Fairly crude, but solid construction, Soldier made I think with a nice early 'Motto' as centre piece. So possibly 17L, or 17/21L inter war period?

Rob

[GriffMJ]

Rob

The Motto on the belt buckle is a WW2 (My Ref: "Rat Face") Cap Motto, 17th/21stL..... the belt looks "Bundeswehr" to me?

More later..... Son (Flyhalf) is about to take on Solihull RFC at U13s.

[GriffMJ]

Rob

Ok, below is the WW2 Motto on that belt (My ref: "Rat Face").... Officers beret above and ORs below. There might be two makers of the ORs.... you do find one type with the top right hip end bone bent down and one with a straight bone - as shown on your belt buckle (could be two different makers or a production run oddity?) The Officers Wm has far more definition to it than the ORs - and loops ofcourse.


LB&Bco:- The name up or down the slider just appears to be linked to a production run.... nothing more significant...... the only way to prove a significance is if LB&BCo had them bagged with MOD No. and date printed on them (like Firmin do with theirs - IE the "Fat" Firmin mark is 2008)? there is a "bronze?" (Gun-metal) LB&Bco as illustrated above..... I have not seen a difference in the white AA colours..... other than one might be brighter than the other? The White metal do display a difference in the back image according to early and later productions (so a change in the male die - for whatever reason). I think I am right in saying that LB&Bco come under the "TKS" umbrella of companies?

I would like to see the QRL c2000 "private purchases" you elude to?

The Timeline graphic is a good illustration of how things progress..... I can do a large one for all makers (known and unknown), but I am not sure if it would come out well on a forum post?

DOWLER & FIRMIN Motto thing:- "I reckon" Dowler kept copyright of their Smith & Wright Motto..... because FIRMIN make a similar but differenced motto on acquisition of the Dowler Company hence the reappearance of the Smith & Wright Motto as "Shaw Munster" post 2000 (possible time lapse deal done on that?). Chris eludes to the fact that a single director traveled from Smith & Wright, Dowler & Shaw Munster.... amongst other things related. Chris also mentions the quality assurance mark in the 1980s and this might go some way to explaining the FIRMIN Motto with the "DOWLER. BIRMINGHAM" makers mark....... the same could be said for the Gaunt Motto produced by Firmin with the "J.R.GAUNT LONDON LTD." makers mark in the early 1990s post acquisition of Gaunt.

* Its important to note that you don't find the "new" FIRMIN Motto in white metal..... only AA, silver/plate or the "Gun-Metal" (as you have revealed) - I dont think there is a HM'd Officers..... but it could be lying on a "desk" somewhere, FIRMIN had their "old" Motto for the HM'd anyway?

[GriffMJ]

Rob

Ref our last..... the "Two" types of ORs "Rat Face" Motto might be significant re: PVCN 29-20-2032? Might explain the bone difference on earlier and later production?

* Note: The "Rat face" is often found with its original WW2 slider safety clip. Also look at the top right hip end in the image below.

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Griff,
How did your son and his team get on this morning?
Regards Frank

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Hello Griff,
How did your son and his team get on this morning?
Regards Frank

Frank

We lost.