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  #46  
Old 06-10-20, 12:22 PM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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What is that?



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Originally Posted by silverwash View Post
I imagine these feet would look out of place on a Parachute Regiment cap badge.
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  #47  
Old 06-10-20, 01:06 PM
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see "Today's offering for a chuckle"
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  #48  
Old 06-10-20, 01:48 PM
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a non-nickel plated, silver finish brass example. A while back at an Oosterbeek commemoration I had to take a second look at a veterans cap badge. After a chat with him all was revealed. His nickel plated brass Parachute Regiment with lugs had had all the plating on the front polished off and resembled " gold ". The rear still retained the original nickel finish. Likewise a GPR veteran had done the same to his cap badge.
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File Type: jpg brass front.jpg (61.5 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg brass rear.jpg (51.8 KB, 31 views)
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  #49  
Old 06-10-20, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverwash View Post
a non-nickel plated, silver finish brass example. A while back at an Oosterbeek commemoration I had to take a second look at a veterans cap badge. After a chat with him all was revealed. His nickel plated brass Parachute Regiment with lugs had had all the plating on the front polished off and resembled " gold ". The rear still retained the original nickel finish. Likewise a GPR veteran had done the same to his cap badge.
I've got a few of these voided crown badges with this finish which is easily removed. The nickel plated ones must have taken a bit to remove but remove it they did as you say.

What is your opinion of the thin silverwash coating being used, it appears to have been an economy measure to save nickel? It doesn't seem to have been used on the other pattern PR badges or AAC badges however.
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  #50  
Old 06-10-20, 03:59 PM
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if I was to hazard a guess it could be a zinc coating either by electrolysis or hot dipping.
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  #51  
Old 06-10-20, 04:50 PM
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You could be right, the coating does have the appearance of zinc galvanised steel. It would be interesting to analyse it.
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  #52  
Old 07-10-20, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
In my opinion the sealed pattern card badge is similar if not identical to the Gaunt pattern badge. It is nothing like the other ranks voided crown pattern that some collectors believe was the first pattern badge worn.
I would agree that the March 1943 prototype was very likely produced by Gaunt. I believe by other ranks voided pattern, you refer to the one with a quite larger crown obviously very different from the Gaunt original.

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Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
All the WW2 era Parachute Regiment Officers badges that I own and have seen are typically voided crown whether hallmarked or not and were made by Gaunt, Firmin and Ludlow, each with their distinctive patterns. I have not seen an other ranks Gaunt badge with a voided crown.
I disagree with your statement that badges for officers had typically voided crown during WW2. I can produce evidences of just the opposite. I don’t believe private purchase badges were necessarily exclusive to officers.

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Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
I agree that it would be nice to have hard evidence of the timeline of these badges, it just seems logical that the Gaunt other ranks badge would have been produced around the time of the first date letter S officers badge being of the same pattern but with a non voided crown.
I’m wondering if the shortage of badge in 1943 couldn’t be related to technical difficulties of producing the voided badge which ultimately led to a simplified pattern. This could have been suggested to the Army Clothing Dpt by Gaunt itself. Actually, the larger voided crown pattern could have been a way to address some of the issues.
In the meantime, as it was the case for the Para wings, alternative patterns likely surfaced on the market due to the strong demand for the new badge, either for private purchase or ordnance issue. Certainly, photo evidences suggest that many variants were worn in 1944 with both voided and non-voided crowns.
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  #53  
Old 07-10-20, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by marinus View Post
The "replica voided crown pattern" parachute regiment badge from Luc's album is another interesting and controversial badge.
Its lines are also asymmetrical and similar to the non-voided one in post #1.

I've attached images of two voided badges with almost the same pattern for comparison.
There's a difference in the lions legs though.
Marinus, I don't see any obvious difference between the two badges. I was told it could be a Firmin pattern and indeed it has some similarities with a silver example that I saw.
I've attached a photo of my badge for comparison.
Voided Firmin White Metal.jpg
The trouble is, as for the badge that is the topic of interest in this thread, this pattern has been reproduced extensively. Check this out https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Military-Bad...97.m4902.l9144
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  #54  
Old 07-10-20, 05:36 AM
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Default "Replica voided crown" para badge

Thank you for your contributions to this thread, tcrown.

The badge in your last post #53 looks very similar to the one ones in my post #32.

Luc's "Replica voided crown" is a little different in that the legs of the lion are voided.
The badge in the eBay link in your last post the lion has also voided / fretted legs.

I would love to see is the badge on the reference card in Oliver Lock's book that you mentioned in #post 40 as I don't own that book yet.







Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Marinus, I don't see any obvious difference between the two badges. I was told it could be a Firmin pattern and indeed it has some similarities with a silver example that I saw.
I've attached a photo of my badge for comparison.
Attachment 231907
The trouble is, as for the badge that is the topic of interest in this thread, this pattern has been reproduced extensively. Check this out https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Military-Bad...97.m4902.l9144
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  #55  
Old 07-10-20, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marinus View Post
Thank you for your contributions to this thread, tcrown.

The badge in your last post #53 looks very similar to the one ones in my post #32.

Luc's "Replica voided crown" is a little different in that the legs of the lion are voided.
The badge in the eBay link in your last post the lion has also voided / fretted legs.

I would love to see is the badge on the reference card in Oliver Lock's book that you mentioned in #post 40 as I don't own that book yet.
here you are

interesting that is says to be fitted with vertical shank
Attached Images
File Type: jpg para badge sealed pattern scan.jpg (50.9 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg para badge sealed pattern scan crop.jpg (97.4 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg para badge sealed pattern scan crop 2.jpg (116.3 KB, 51 views)
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  #56  
Old 07-10-20, 01:12 PM
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Default 25-03-1942 reference card para badge

Thank you, Jerry!

If my old eyes don't mislead me I see fretted legs on the lion?
I think that the badge on that reference card looks very similar to the Ludlow
made casted badge.

Marinus


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here you are

interesting that is says to be fitted with vertical shank
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  #57  
Old 07-10-20, 01:59 PM
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my fretted plated pair
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File Type: jpg fretted pair 2.jpg (35.7 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg fretted pair 1.jpg (31.0 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg fretted pair 3.jpg (29.3 KB, 27 views)
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  #58  
Old 07-10-20, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
I would agree that the March 1943 prototype was very likely produced by Gaunt. I believe by other ranks voided pattern, you refer to the one with a quite larger crown obviously very different from the Gaunt original.



I disagree with your statement that badges for officers had typically voided crown during WW2. I can produce evidences of just the opposite. I donÂ’t believe private purchase badges were necessarily exclusive to officers.



IÂ’m wondering if the shortage of badge in 1943 couldnÂ’t be related to technical difficulties of producing the voided badge which ultimately led to a simplified pattern. This could have been suggested to the Army Clothing Dpt by Gaunt itself. Actually, the larger voided crown pattern could have been a way to address some of the issues.
In the meantime, as it was the case for the Para wings, alternative patterns likely surfaced on the market due to the strong demand for the new badge, either for private purchase or ordnance issue. Certainly, photo evidences suggest that many variants were worn in 1944 with both voided and non-voided crowns.
Officers badges tend to be of better quality and were mainly private purchase as far as I am aware. They were probably outside the budget of most other ranks especially the hallmarked silver examples, however I would imagine that they would be able to purchase them if they could afford them.

The solid back showing no obverse stamping details is a feature of most officers badges and often but not always feature the makers mark. In the case of the Parachute Regiment officers badge some had the lion's legs and tail voided in addition to the crown. It is my understanding that the more voiding, the more they cost as there was more work involved in production.

I can only give an opinion on what I have in my collection and from photographs of badges belonging to others that I have seen. It is also my opinion that the private purchase solid construction badges often produced in silver or silver plate were available for purchase at a premium and were aimed at the officer market.

All my officer examples have the crown and legs voided and some have the tail voided as well.

Jack.
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  #59  
Old 08-10-20, 02:19 AM
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Sorry Jack, I misinterpreted what you wanted to say about officers' badges. Yes, private purchase silver or silver plate examples with a solid back have voided crowns. It doesn't mean officers worn only these badges during WW2.

I'm more interested in the white metal badges with a voided crown made by Gaunt and other makers. They were not necessarily ordnance issues. Some could have been made available for private purchase as well. I'm more and more convinced of the fact that the original design presented challenges in the manufacturing process and could have been only offered in silver or silver plate because they proved to be too costly to mass produce for the other ranks.

This could have led to a simplified pattern (non-voided) a little bit later (could still have been in the course of 1943).
We know about the other voided pattern with a larger crown (just like the ones Jerry has posted), quite different from the original sealed design. It looks to me it could have been ordnance issue given the large number of surviving examples. Very difficult to imagine when this pattern was issued but it could have been later in the war (ie 1944). Looking forward to reading your views.

Last edited by tcrown; 08-10-20 at 03:12 AM.
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  #60  
Old 08-10-20, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marinus View Post
Luc's "Replica voided crown" is a little different in that the legs of the lion are voided.
The badge in the eBay link in your last post the lion has also voided / fretted legs.
Can you provide a link to Luc's badge? I believe the badge on eBay is a replica.
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