[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

Brent .
Absolutely nothing personal on my behalf, don’t take it any other way .As you will well know ,I'm just learning the trade.

Puk we are both learning, we both use the same forums to find answers and test our theories, and we are both guilty on more than one occasion in collaborating together to prove that the book writers quite often get it wrong.

You and your two New Zealand leading authorities of uniforms and insignia have questioned the word of Colonel Wallace!!!!!!!!!

Well I’m calling on you all out on it.
What proof do you, Barry or Doctor Fox have, that proves beyond all doubt that Colonel Wallace lied when he signed the letter??????

As its three against one (my kind of odds), I will obviously play Devil’s advocate representing the good name of Colonel Wallace.

I maintain that the “old desert worn beret” was indeed worn by Colonel Wallace, and it is a “genuine relic of the 1939-45 war,” and that the “green patch of the Div. Cav. Reg,” is original to the beret.

Originally Posted by pukman

I just thought it to be common knowledge that the diamond patch in any shape or form, was post war.

The NZ Divisional Cavalry Regimental order 85 (dated 17th February 1943), does not describe shapes, so technically it cannot be ruled out that the popular diamond shape or square shape was not used.

Originally Posted by pukman

I have read the part on the order in the Thomas/Lord book and I don't see anything relating to a diamond patch ,although its up to interpretation .

It is your own interpretation that is flawed, if you re-read all my comments concerning Wallaces beret, you will note there is a subtle ambiguity of information, and that I have never actually claimed that the patch on Colonel Wallace’s beret was applied during WW2.
Nor have I mentioned that a green diamond patch was used was used during WW2.

My interpretation of “NZ Divisional Cavalry Regimental Order 54” (page 49 T&L), was that it was a little vague on how the “green colour patches” were to be applied behind the onwards badge.
(Interestingly, the “4thNZ Armoured Brigade Regimental Order 26” (dated 26-12-42) described. — “the red flash will be cut to fit behind the badge.”)

The fact that “NZ Divisional Cavalry Regimental Order 85” exists, suggests to me the problem of interpretation of how the patch was to be applied, was so widespread that it required a regimental order to fix it. —
“Personnel have been observed wearing the green coloured patch in such a fashion that the patch can be seen “outside” the edges of the badge.”

Its only speculation on my part, but it seems very possible to me the green cloth issued by the Regimental Quarter-master, may have been originally issued in the standard regulation 2 inch square size, and left up to the individual soldier to cut to shape.

Originally Posted by pukman

I read Barry O'Sullivan's thread on Militarianz and contacted him .Yes you are correct ,is one of my good contacts .
Barry is the author of the only reference book produced on NZ military uniforms.

Don’t get me wrong, I have the greatest respect for Barry, and fully appreciate all the help and mentoring that he has extended to me over the years, and I fully endorse his and Matthews two books, nobody else could have done a better job.

Originally Posted by pukman

He has handled the beret when he arranged the selling of the items which were mostly post war.

Interestingly, as a member of the Wellington Antique Arms, it was thru one of our auctions that I obtained Wallace’s beret, there was a lot of interest on the day, especially from Dave Oldham who wanted it for his own NZ Armoured collection.
I have never met Colonel Wallace or John the collector who originally owned it, but I believe I was reliably informed by somebody who knew him personally, that Colonel Wallace’s beret was one of John’s prized possessions in his collection.

Barry organised the sale of John’s collection, and yes according to Barry it did contain some of Colonel Wallace’s belongings that he wore post war, but Barry also admits the collection also contained Wallace’s “pre war dress blue uniform (that he wore post war as well).”

The pre war dress blue uniform being worn post war is important to the understanding of the beret, as it shows that Wallace did not unnecessarily discard items of his uniform as he changed units or increased in rank.

Originally Posted by pukman

The Lt Col served until the 1960's .Amongst other things Barry has told me that the hat is post war and he wouldn't have it in his collection. Hardly a ringing endorsement

It seems obvious to me that Colonel Wallace did as he says in the letter, and that is wear the beret during the 1939-45 war, and he continued to wear it after the war, until the beret was no longer serviceable.
Barry is completely wrong in his assessment that the beret is post war, and was only worn post WW2, and he will need to prove this beyond reasonable doubt before he is taken seriously.

Originally Posted by pukman

My other source ,Aaron Fox ,was one of the main consultants in the Thomas /Lord insignia book .I'm not sure without peer in the uniform collecting world in New Zealand .I would take his testimony above all as he has been a very successful collector /researcher of uniforms /headwear and insignia for decades

I only know of Doctor Fox from what you have told me in private emails, and I don’t recall that you ever mentioned he was New Zealand’s leading authority on insignia.

Originally Posted by pukman

He has said ''not what I have would expect from a WW2 model necessarily( and if I were Attila the Nunns ) I would proactively suggest that it could be a post WW2 RNZAC beret with a retro fit 2NZEF badge''
Again not a ringing endorsement.

I suspect the good doctor has never handled Colonel Wallace’s beret, so I am going to go out on a limb here.
The way I read it, Aaron has naughtily based his opinion on just the patch alone, as any worthy authority in uniforms and insignia would have done, he should really have asked for better pictures, especially of the inside, before making any reasonable determination that the beret is solely post WW2?????

Originally Posted by pukman

Perhaps one of us can contact Malcolm Thomas and get his views on R.O 85 and weather it pertains to your diamond patch .
Better still ,and this is a game changer ,a picture of Col Wallace wearing the diamond patch in the desert would prove beyond all doubt your theory

I have never claimed that the current patch on Wallace’s beret was ever worn in the desert, that is all in your own imagination.
What I can tell you is that in the desert Wallace’s only hat insignia was a NZ Onward badge.

However I am only too happy if he is in agreement, to let Malcolm Thomas get a hands on with Wallace’s beret, as he’s only a half hour drive from where I live, as I am 100% confident that he will agree that the beret is what Wallace would have worn during WW2, and even more confident he will easily identify the green diamond patch is original to the beret.

Just out of interest it is recorded that while attached to a British Regiment, Wallace who was a Captain at the time, managed to persuade the British battalion commander to let him go on a “silent” raid on the night of the 22nd-23rd August 1940, against an Italian post on the Libyan frontier. (The patrol consisted of one officer and fourteen other ranks)

In the report of the Lieutenant-Colonel commanding the British Regiment he wrote:—“Captain Wallace accompanied the patrol, and I understand he is the first member of the New Zealand forces in this war to have been in a hand-to-hand encounter with the enemy. Captain Wallace ably supported the patrol leader throughout the operations, and displayed that coolness and dash for which New Zealanders were famed in the war of 1914-18.”