I have the silver a/a version. Alan, if you are wanting to sell your gold version, please pm me :)

Gerry and Phil, I've seen the silver version worn by security staff on the gate and entrance of Scotland Yard.
Tony.

Off message a bit?
 

The title of this post drew me in...

I am currently a reservist. Some of my units trade badges seem never to have been available, or at least not in the memory of my major unit! I have seen 1 which was manufactured c 1968.

So we normally OFFICIALLY, or with tacit approval, employ Gurkha badges & obtain same via official channels, for those not available as the colours are just reversed.

I have just had made a small batch of a rather obscure one.

If they are the correct colours & ARE being worn when do they qualify as 'official'.

In my humble opinion if a badge is worn it's REAL.

Red Rags,

I would be interested to see what badge you have made if possible.

regards

Other than the missing maker mark, are these not identical to the "official" version, in two colours etc. Hard to say from your pics if this is all silver or silver and gold.
I have one in two colours that came from a"reputable" dealer, not silly money but a shame to think it is now worth nothing. With the new rules in the sales section, does this mean it could not be sold on the forum?

If you mean the Welch Regt, then the copies are not identical as the way they made are different.

It is bi-colour.

You are correct that as a copy then it would not be suitable for sale on the forum even as a gap filler.

Thanks you for the prompt reply Alan.

The badge I own is shown in the attached thread where one that appears to be the same was classed as a genuine Gaunt of uncertain date.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ighlight=Welch

Chris literally wrote the book on these ones so I would ask him as he knows far more than me.

it's personal choice but I would always go for the maker marked one rather than the unmarked impressed one.

Alan

Thanks again Alan.

Hopefully Chris will notice this thread and add a comment.

Hi red rags,

the purists would probably say no, I however after 22 years Regular Army service (and another 3 before that in the then TA) say yes, if its worn by the troops I would consider having it in my collection, I suppose each to their own.

Cheers,

FMT600

We did see some very odd badges in the depot at Bicester when I was there. I personally saw (and have) a Gordons with BY DAND - one of the so called non-existent badges as well as examples from R Leicesters, HLI, Notts and Derby, SWB, Camerons, R Irish Fus and R Innis Fus. We had them on a board to help with recognition when new stocks came in. Clearly these were examples that had been there for aeons as I only started work there in 1983.

Interesting.. I took six of these off of the shelves of shed D2 and D1 at COD Bicester in 1983 whilst doing stock reconciliations and obsolescence clearance. I kept one as it was an interesting badge (I wasn't a collector at the time) and have had it since. So, in answer, it must have been authorised for production because it made it to the MOD storage depot and had a NSN. Whether it was ever issued is the question, but as only six were left when I cleared them out there must have been more as MOD never bought badges,especially cheap and cheerful staybrites, in batches of less that 20-30 from my experience - the stock card I recall had held these six as annual checks for so long no other issues were recorded.

Which badge mentioned above are you specifically referring to here mate?

Thanks

Bess

The HLI and Gordons badges were the ones I was referring to. Mentioned by Alan O quite early in this chain. Someone authorised them as they were on the shelves of an MOD site!

didithevan, I worked in Shed D2 (Clothing Detail) in the early 70's and at that time many Kings Crown badges were still in stock. Shed D1 was Bulk Storage so less stock was seen open on bins (shelves)

You were lucky to even get close the badges section as they were then the domain of two very protective civi ladies, as believe it or not the most popular badges to go missing were RAOC, WRAC & RPC (for replacement wear) not the more exotic ones as not many who worked there were collector's! I did see more than a few batch issues of badges for military displays go thru the system however, and in later years of service never returned to Bicester, or never to the sheds anyway.

I have about 12, 'as new' 2 piece 'FIRMIN LONDON' many still wrapped in tissue paper RAOC cap badges for sale to RAOC Association members for wearing, not collecting that are still in demand by ex RAOC soldiers.

One thing I am really after are RAOC sealed working patterns of any kind, as not many see the light of day for some reason!

From West Yorkshire Man,,,, How does this badge differ from the 9th, Queens Royal lancers Badge ?. I only ask as I am looking at one on line at the moment.

All the 9th Lancers badges have a blank slider. As far as im aware nobody has come across a maker marked one.
I dont think Chris came across any evidence to say that the badge received authorisation .

Hi Mike,

Never found any authorisation info for this item.

Regards,

Chris

Whilst no documentation for the anodised aluminium 9th Lancers badge has been identified, there is an unusual anomaly with this badge. If we assume that it is something manufactured outside of usual MOD contracts that are recorded, what is odd is that there are also anodised aluminium collar badges for this regiment.

I have seen a few of the cap badges over the years and they all present generally in immaculate condition which would tend to support the theory that they were not issued in the traditional sense - or perhaps ever worn.

Whilst I cannot back up my theory with any credible evidence, I would suspect that they may have been made for recruits but clearly never issued and ordered outside of the usual procurement processes (this may explain why they are all in very good condition). It may also explain the collar badges being existence. I suspect that this badge is not a fake in its own right but made and never issued. Off the top of my head, I cant think of any other faked anodised collar badges. A huge expense for little return.

I did contact the 9/12L association on one occasion. My enquiry was if the 9th and 12th Lancers anodised badges ever worn by any of the members to their recollection? The reply was that they were worn in training by recruits. Well . . . perhaps. I wasn't wholly convinced. The anodised 12th Lancers however also have collars and indeed anodised titles, but they too present in pristine condition.

We do know that anodised badges were issued to recruits only to be discarded for brass badges once at the regular Battalions. A good example of this practice being the Loyal Regt - which I understand tends to explain the scarcity of the Kings Crown example of this anodised aluminium cap badge.

As ever chaps, more than happy to be corrected.

Regards all

Bess

There is no correlation between a/a collars and cap badges. Collars were often sealed and made in a/a long before cap badges as stocks of collars were often smaller, and thus used up faster, than cap badges. Same goes for a/a buttons.

Quite right Alan. To correlate collars with badges is quite foolish and if one reads Army Dress Committee minutes one will find that seldom (if ever) are the two authorised at the same time.

Regards,

Chris

No, you cant correlate the two obviously as there are many anodised buttons made with Kings Crown etc, that never had an anodised badge to go with it.

However, if we think that the 9th Lancers wore the anodised collar with a usual metal cap badge then fine. If anyone can put flesh on those bones it would be interesting. Ditto for the 12L.

My point was - as the suspicion is that the anodised 9L is 'fake' then to go to the lengths of 'faking' a collar is unusual and may tend to make us view the cap badge in a less spurious light.

So are we saying the 9L collars are good? If they are, then that would clear up that question.

Hi Bess,

If I remember the order of changing from non-AA to AA was first buttons followed by collars and then badges. This was not a 100% rule but can be viewed as a general approach to the transfer of one metal form to the other.

Although I ignored collars in my work on A/A cap badges I am currently going through the ADC meeting minutes from the original WODC meetings to current day. Problem is that I don't have a lot of time at the moment but I will look out for 9th and 12th Lancers items to see if collars were authorised.

Hopefully I have not already passed such information.

Regards,

Chris

Hi Chris - thank you, that may well answer the 9L & 12L collar question, if not the 9L cap badge.

In fact, what that leads onto then, is how many Regiments are there who had anodised alluminium collars issued but never had the anodised cap badge? Its an interesting area.

Anyone think of any? Must be one or two.

Very interesting question Bess
Id say Suffolk rgt.
But i cant say 100 % that the anodised cap is not genuine and the collar badges were produced for the Suffolk and Cambridge TA and not the regular Btn of the Suffolk regt.
Possibly East Yorkshire, again i dont know 100% if the very flat star collars were made for the East Yorks or the PWO during the Brigade period.

Thanks Mike.

Interestingly MOD docket WO32/16956 is the anodised badge policy documemt which runs from 1957 - 1965, but initial minutes are copies of a Branch memoranda docket dated 1951 - comprising of a cover letter from J R Gaunt which accompanied 2 sample RASC anodised cap badges sent to the War Office.

This docket covers aspects of anodised badge manufacture and trials (cap, collar, trade and rank) and is to a certain extent a snap shot of the genus of anodised badge implementation throughout this period. There was a clear drive to 'anodise' all regiments and corps.

Although there is little specific mention individual regiments in any comprehensive manner, there is some valuable and interesting information. There are some listed returns and commentary from the Guards Brigade which is a little conflicting, but suffice to say that they were unpopular with Guards Bn's.

There is no specific mention of which badges are to be introduced first - i.e. cap or collar - or indeed which were rolled out first to individual regiments. However a review memo dated Nov 1964 quotes anodisation completion as follows:-

cap - 60%
collar - 70%
button - 50% - (becoming 100% later that year)

Whilst there is no specific mention of the 9L, there is mention of difficulties in manufacturing the 9/12L cap badge. Interestingly this memo is dated over a year before the actual amalgamation in 1960.

All the above for interests sake gents.

Hopefully Chris may uncover some data that may add light to the 9L anodised badges question.

Regards all

Bess

Ive read part of that document Bess. There were plenty of complaint letters from the Guards.
Brasso and anodised aluminium doesnt mix well.

Hi Guys,

The document is a good start re: AA cap badges but there are lots more in the Kew Archives and other documents around the UK in museums etc. worth looking at.

The complaints about the Grenadier Guards badges were not entertained by Gaunt as it seems some were stamped on and hence this was the reason they became scratched.

With regard to Lancers badges. If I remember there were very difficult and expensive to make and it came to a point where manufacturers were not interested in making them. This may explain why I could find no info on the 9th Lancers.

I don't have a copy of my book with me at the mo but if I remember all Bess and Mike's comments are also written up in the Preface or Chapter 1.

Regards,

Chris

Was this deemed real or fake in the end?

Hi

This badge was worn by the Norfolk Army Cadet Force which I was attached to in 1959-60 period. There were two Army Cadet Forces in the area and the unit wore the Britannia badge.

Regards
Arthur

Arthur

Thank you that's very interesting. Can I confirm that they were wearing it in a/a as the parent Gunner Bty seems to have been wearing the brass version in the 1950s?

Alan

Alan,

We were definitely wearing the a/a version of the badge. The only brass we cleaned was on the belt and anklets.

Regards
Arthur

Did you wear collar badges Arthur ?

Hi Mike

No collar badges. The old style uniform with a rounded yellow felt arc with black embroidered Norfolk. Underneath was another yellow felt arc with black embroidered A.C.F. From what I recall it had straight edges! Mid shoulder was a linen khaki rectangle with a dark blue 2 printed in the centre and we also wore a white lanyard which wasn't the single cord type.

Regards
Arthur

I see from Chris's collection site that this is deemed a fake.

I notice from Chris's collection http://www.smle.army-cap-badges.talk...dised_Infantry that he shows one for the Welch and one for the SWB that he calls unofficial commission for the Welch and unofficial comm ACF CCF for the SWBords. Does that make these fakes or unofficial but genuine badges?

It would be great if someone can comment on this.

I know from other threads that the Welch is made from the Gaunt die but Alan in this thread http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=52768 calls it A copy of a badge that was authorised for production. and in the first post refers to the SWBords as a fake.

Where does that leave the Welsh and SWBords badges as I have both (I have two of the Welch) and one day might wish to sell them. If Chris says they are unofficial but does not call them fakes (as he has with the By Dand Gordons), but Alan does call them copies for the Welch or fake for the SWBords, which makes them not allowed to be sold on this forum.

Obviously I could ebay them and they would both sell, but I would not wish to sell them as unofficial but genuine if they are indeed fakes/copies.

It is with good reason that Chris Marsh's book entitles the cadets chapter as a 'confusion of cadets'.

As I understand it the badges shown are 'not authorised for production' - namely not worn by the Regular or TA Battalions during their existence.

I have not seen any evidence to suggest that any CCF or ACF had them made in the years after the regts had adopted the Welsh Bde/RRW cap badge but precedents exist elsewhere of ACFs continuing to wear pre '58 badges well into the 1990s so I would not rule it out. For example I know for a fact that the Y&L and the Cameronians badges were worn by the ACF and the Tyneside Scottish is still in use by cadets today.

If anyone does have any evidence for the SWB and the Welch badges wear by cadets then I would be very interested.

Thank you for answering my question Alan.

Unfortunately the production of these a/a badges does seem rather muddled and hard facts are few and far between. The fact that the Welsh badge is made form a Gaunt die but not maker marked does rather suggest that it was either not made by the Company but by someone who had come into the possession of a genuine die or that, as has been suggested elsewhere, they were made by Gaunts but for whatever reason they chose to conceal their involvement.

The reason that I used the term 'copy' for the Welsh regt but 'fake' for the SWB is that the Welsh Ret badge was produced for the MOD whilst the SWB badge was not made in a/a prior to the regts' merger. If they were made for cadets then they could legitimately be regarded as genuine cadet badges in the same way as other school CCF badges are considered genuine.

Alan,

Thank you for expanding on your earlier reply.

I did not know that no AA swb badges were officially issued. I thought there was at least one version issued.