Black AA RTR beret badge
 

Evening chaps

I picked up an auction lot earlier which contained a mix of mostly modern British Army insignia (I now have enough miniatures of the ‘Afghanistan’ medal to deck myself out like a Third-world general if the fancy takes me). One of the badges is a QC Royal Tank Regiment beret badge which appears to have beeen manufactured with a black anodised finish (rather than painted by the owner), is this a particularly rare item? I had a trawl through past threads but it is entirely possible I missed any reference to it. Any thought or comments are, as always, greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Graham

Hi, not sure how rare they are, but there are two versions of it. So I suppose it depends on the production runs, Mike

Thanks Mike, I suppose without a maker's mark there's little chance of attributing this one to a maker.

Best

Graham

Not so rare, I think.

Here's another one.

Chris will be up soon, to tell us they are not official badges. :)

Cheers

William

Quite right William,

They most certainly ain't.

Regards

Chris

Black RTR
 

I was thinking that some other units have blacked cap badges, but them remembered that the RTR are unique in wearing a true black beret, so, as my father says, "It'd be like a black cat int coal mine"

Ian H

I would think more reason to blacken their badges , many blacken badges were worn in Northern Ireland
David

Mike,
I have a couple of these - what are the differences between the two types?

Regards all

Bess

Hi, here are the two types that I have, Mike

Hi Mike

Mine is more like the smaller of the two except the reverse of the tank is depressed.

Graham

Mike,
thanks, mine appear to be ident with your second example on the right. In comparing the two types - i.e. the detail mainly on the tank and the crown - I would say that the left hand one is more likely from a FIRMIN die and the right hand example is a GAUNT badge. This I surmise from examining both against marked regular silver examples in my collection. Additionally you could scrutinise the lugs . . .

Anyway, thanks.

Regards all

Bess

Hi Bess, I'll have to check later, interesting. When you say silver, is that hallmarked silver? and if so what dates do you have? I've only got two or three that I like, of the top of my head I think they are 1960 and couple in the 1990's, best wishes Mike

Mike, Just the usual silver a/a examples. I don't know the date the pattern was sealed but it must be late 50's - early 60's and still worn by the RTR today. I've got FIRMIN and GAUNT marked examples - and oddly a gold example marked JR GAUNT LONDON - clearly a colour error.

Regards all

Bess

RTR Sealed Pattern from 54Bty collection
http://http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/group.php?do=picture&groupid=7&pictureid=13100
Sealed 1970 but I joined the RTR in September 1969 and was issued with a 2 lug silver AA badge with backing plate?
Tim

Is there a Black RTR badge with a slider? Or did they only have lugs?

Mick

Hi Bess,

I think the gold coloured badge was worn by the RTR band, can anyone confirm this?

Regards, Bill

Armoured cavalry, were issued black berets in 1939 or shortly after. The reason they don't wear them now is because they made the changes themselves. I think there are one or two who still wear black, like the QRL, but I'd need that confirmed.

Not that ive ever seen Mick. Yet if you look closely at some examples you can see the place where the slider would be located.

I mentioned the gold badge to a lady that works for the museum .She didn't mention it,so presume that if it was a band item she would have said so.

QRL and the Black Beret
 

How dare they!! I'm sure that can't be true.

Best wishes

Gordon

The RTR wear black berets, nobody else. The other cavalry regts wear dark blue except for the KRH who wear brown and the RSDG who wear grey and the QRH with their green.

I might be on to one with a slider.

Will post pics of it if I get it.

Mick

On OCA days I have clearly seen brethren of the 8th KRIH wearing a pure black beret (note - pure black, not dark blue) and I'm aware that this was an issue item to all armoured cavalry from 1939 onwards until various regimental colonels started introducing coloured berets.

The Observer Corps wore black berets too, with RAF blue uniforms.

The IRA wear black berets too ;)

EDIT: http://www.1rtr.net/blackberet.html confirms that the entire Royal Armoured Corps wore black berets from 1940 onwards. The current schedule for the wearing of black berets is:

Royal Tank Regiment
W (Westminster Dragoons) Squadron
Royal Yeomanry

It is not till you see a Black and a Dark Navy Blue Beret next to each other that you really see the difference!

Royal British Legion Standard Bearers are meant to wear a Black Beret, but many wear Dark Blue as the are more available.

Id love to see it if you do Mick.

I've seen them both side by side Mike. At RAC Trg Regt we Irish Hussars were issued with dark blue berets instead of the rifle green ones with silk banding which we got when reporting for RD. This was common with some regiments like us, RSDG, RH etc. RTR chaps on the other hand got their black berets straight away. So we were very adept at spotting the difference.

This is why I was surprised to see old Korea hands from the 8th wearing black berets and why I asked them about it.

Of course the link I gave is a confirmation, one amongst many, that the entire RAC wore a black beret from 1940 onwards. It wasn't until post 1945 that the RTR laid claim to the black beret as the distinction it had been pre war but even then it's not exclusive in the army as I've shown.

Point taken .

Ive been looking into the blackened badge thing. The following comes from the assistant curator of the tank museum.

The black anodised RTR was manufactured in response to the soldiers painting them black. They were first issued to 3RTR for a tour of NI.

That's kind of what I thought. After 1980 a lot of units issued blackened badges for the same reason. Even in the UDR where we had quite happily worn a gilt finish Maid of Erin we were then told to wear blackened ones as other ex UDR guys on this site will confirm.

The Armour at CAD Kineton did mine with 'Weapon Black' the paint used to touch up or finish weapons that were worn to the metal, as it was hard wearing. I never saw a commercial RAOC example.

I regard any badge that was worn in service as collectable, be it a Prototype, Issued & Approved, NAAFI or PRI Specials, or sold by the Garrison Militaria Shop. As well as local produced examples such as Indian Cast etc. Badges painted or blackened for Service in N.I. included (Worn by me as it happens) or for wear in the Commando Ordnance (now Logistic) Squadron.

Note: My collecting criteria may not be the same or as tightly defined as some! for a start its limited to one Corps! which means easier to research

I believe one makes an individual choice as to what's collectible or not. After all, in many cases what's in this year is out the next.

So true, but once its in my collection, its in, if proven to be fake, I still keep it as an example!

Best way in my opinion. At least you still get some satisfaction. Others may not agree though. :p

Just had a look for dates regarding 3RTR in Ulster, "The History of the Tank Regiment" states 1973 then a second tour 1974 to 1975 so the black badge must have made an appearance around that time.

I can't remember that far back, I was still a cadet then. All I know for sure is we were wearing gilt badges in 1979, although some units had changed to blackened ones. I transferred to QRIH that year. By 1983 when our first detachment was going to NI as PGF (Maze) they blackened their badges. When I transferred back to the UDR in 85 I was issued one gilt and one blackened badge.

My remarks were only intended to refer to QRL

Best wishes

Gordon

I don't believe you. :p