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-   -   2nd AIRLANDING ANTI-TANK ARTILLERY:QUESTION (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7047)

HamandJam 30-07-09 07:04 PM

2nd AIRLANDING ANTI-TANK ARTILLERY:QUESTION
 
4 Attachment(s)
Hi I am new to the forum and I hace a question on the ww2 airborne artillery units.

I have 2 rare shoulder titles one ANTI-TANK ARTILLERY and one RA ANTI-TANK

I believe that both were worn by the 2n Air-Landing Anti-tank battery of the 1st airborne division.

Can any one tell me explain the difference are they from a different time period or otherwise?

Thanks
Jean-Baptiste

54Bty 30-07-09 07:11 PM

Very good question, I have yet to find ANY proof that these were worn by anyone during WWII or post.

HamandJam 30-07-09 07:26 PM

Airborne airlanding artillery
 
Hi

On page 147 of Peter Taylors book you see a picture of a solidier wearing the anti-tank artillery S/T with pegasus and airborne strip

I believe these were anyhow unofficial titles.

Regards

Jean-Baptiste

erracht 31-07-09 03:59 PM

Afraid that (in my humble opinion) the second title (RA ANTI-TANK) is a fake - I've got two of them floating around here somewhere. The first one (ANTI-TANK ARTILLERY) looks better though.

An interesting note here: 223 Bty (from 56 (King's Own) Anti-Tank Regt) wore the title ANTI-TANK BATTERY while with 1st A/B Div 1941-42. Maybe set a precendent for 2nd A/L Regt to follow?

Dean

tynesideirish 31-07-09 04:32 PM

According to the best known 'RA expert' Norman Litchfield ,[Not often wrong] these two RA titles (amongst others) were worn by various RA-AT units not just the Airborne one mentioned. The sad truth is most Airborne forces collections contain these titles that never saw an Airborne BD! They were totally unofficial originating from units serving in India, so you wont find any mention in RA Dress regulations.

The picture mentioned stood beside the Rough Rider* has the AIRBORNE strip under the pegasus. [*Joining 1st ABN July 42 as No.1 AL LAA Bty RA (C of L Yeo) (TA)] This dates that pic from July 42 - May 44 when AIRBORNE flash was removed for the invasion of Europe.
Doubtful that the RA-AT title lasted post invasion.

HamandJam 31-07-09 06:52 PM

Airlanding Battery airborne titles
 
Hi

I my view the RA ANTI-TANK is also genuine, it came from Bosleys, ok this an authority argument but still. Further when you have the badge in your hands you just see and feel it is not fake. There are indeed many fakes of this one around (e.g. on Ebay). It is also not a Pakistani copy which normally have the thick clotted threads.

Thanks for all the info, the fascinating thing of badge collecting is also the research and so little is known and written about them.

Cheers

Jean-Baptiste

peter616 31-07-09 07:34 PM

and also in my view the RA ANTI-TANK is also genuine nice title


peter

peter616 31-07-09 07:58 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Here is the picture of a man wearing the anti-tank artillery S/T with pegasus and airborne strip
and more RA Title

peter

Attachment 15956

Attachment 15957

blackpowder44 01-08-09 01:27 PM

Airborne Flash.
 
I read with interest Tyneside Irish"s post above, especially the latter part saying that the Airborne flash was not worn after May 1944. I thought that this was not correct and on looking through a couple of books found in "Arnhem 1944" by Stephen Badsey a picture of a British officer in conference with some Polish airborne officers carring out an after battle report on the battle of Arnhem. The British officer is definitly wearing an Airborne flash.
Also in the book Arnhem Lift by Louis Hagen there is a picture of him in 1944 wearing the Airborne flash.
I would be interested where Tyneside Irish obtained his info. from. John.

blackpowder44 01-08-09 01:40 PM

Airborne flash
 
Also look at The Glider Soldiers by Alan Wood, Picture showing 5 Glider pilots DFM"s and MM having been decorated by H.M. King George the VI in December 1944. Four of the five Pilots are wearing the Airborne flash. John.

Luc 02-08-09 09:38 PM

The RA anti tank shoulder title is right as rain. I have an identical example in my collection.

As for the airborne flash, there's regulations and practice!
Many Canadian paras and members of the 6th AB div wore the flash after it was officially discontinued.

tynesideirish 03-08-09 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tynesideirish (Post 43835)
The picture mentioned stood beside the Rough Rider* has the AIRBORNE strip under the pegasus. [*Joining 1st ABN July 42 as No.1 AL LAA Bty RA (C of L Yeo) (TA)] This dates that pic from July 42 - May 44 when AIRBORNE flash was removed for the invasion of Europe.
Doubtful that the RA-AT title lasted post invasion.

Sorry. Nowhere in my post above does it mention Glider pilots or anyone other than airborne artillery! This discussion is about RA Anti Tanks and I brought up RA LAA (rough riders) as that photo was mentioned. It is these units that I was talking about regarding removal of the AIRBORNE strip.
My information came from letters in my posession from the Earl of Hardwicke regarding the insignia and roll of the Roughriders and some diaries and photos of members of the 2nd Oban, 300th AT and 3rd AL AT Bty. The Anti tank Bty's where ordered to remove the Airborne strip and they did.

Can we please keep the thread on the subject that it is on and not degenerate into a which units wore Airborne strips after the official order for removal and who didn't thread.

blackpowder44 04-08-09 11:59 AM

airborne strip
 
Dear Tyneside Irish, On reading your previous post the last sentence "This dares the pic from July42-May 44 when the AIRBORNE flash was removed for the invasion of Europe", This sentance seemed to me to imply that all units removed their airborne strip, this is why I queried this statement, if you had made it clear that you were commenting on the specific unit then I would not of made any comment as I have no knowledge of the whys and wherefor of the regulations. I apologise for any upset causet to you. John.

tynesideirish 04-08-09 02:13 PM

John, no problems. It's hard sometimes to convey what we actually mean via these posts. I wasn't specific enough and therefore an honest reply. Mike

54Bty 07-08-09 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tynesideirish (Post 44005)
My information came from letters in my posession from the Earl of Hardwicke regarding the insignia and roll of the Roughriders and some diaries and photos of members of the 2nd Oban, 300th AT and 3rd AL AT Bty. The Anti tank Bty's where ordered to remove the Airborne strip and they did.

So are any members of the above units wearing ANTI-TANK ARTILLERY or R.A. ANTI-TANK?

tynesideirish 10-08-09 11:14 AM

Apart from the photo previously used in Peters book amongst others and a couple of early small photo's. All others including formal Battery pictures show the AT bty's wearing standard ROYAL ARTILLERY titles.

Interest only: From the source mentioned previously. The 1 Airlanding LAA Bty wore ROUGH RIDERS for the course of the war, even when attached to SAS Brigade.

54Bty 10-08-09 03:36 PM

From my own research:

223rd ANTI-TANK BATTERY ROYAL ARTILLERY (TA)

The 56th (King’s Own) Anti Tank Regiment RA (TA), with 221, 222, 223, and 224 Batteries, was formed in 1938 by the conversion of the 4th Battalion, The King’s Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) (TA). As part of the 56th the Battery went to France with the British Expeditionary Force, and participated in the fighting withdrawal and evacuation from Dunkirk in 1940. On return to England the Battery was reformed, becoming independent in July 1940, and assigned to the 31st Independent Infantry Brigade. In November 1941 the Brigade became part of the 1st Airborne Division.

During this time a shoulder designation consisting of the words ANTI TANK BATTERY embroidered in red onto a dark blue background, was unofficially worn at the top of both sleeves of the best Battle Dress Blouse. On the 27th of June 1942 the Battery was officially designated as the 1st Air Landing Anti Tank Battery RA, within the 1st Air Landing Anti Tank Regiment RA. The shoulder designation was then changed to ANTI TANK ARTILLERY. During its short existence the Battery took part in the Airborne Landings on Sicily in July 1943, the Campaign in Italy during September 1943, and Operation “Market” as part of the Air Landing Brigade which fought at Arnhem in September 1944 and subsequent withdrawal across the Rhine. In August 1944 the Battery returned to Europe by sea, to fight alongside the US 501st Airborne Infantry through Holland, returning to England in October. Leave, training and cancelled operations continued until the Battery departed for the liberation of Norway in 1945. The Battery was finally disbanded in 1946. During December 1942 the designation was removed and replaced with normal Royal Artillery titles.

and

1st AIR LANDING ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA

On the 27th of June 1942 the 223rd (Independent) Anti Tank Battery RA, was officially designated as the 1st Air Landing Anti Tank Battery RA, within the 1st Air Landing Anti Tank Regiment RA. It was then that the shoulder designation of the words ANTI TANK ARTILLERY embroidered in red into a dark blue background was unofficially worn at the top of both sleeves of the best Battle Dress Blouse.

NOTE: Both the badges have rounded ends and have serif text, not one of the men I had contact with produced any other type of badge. The badges shown belonged to the Battery Commander.

tynesideirish 10-08-09 05:21 PM

Well 54Bty, thanks for clearing that up.
So worn on Best BD so not in combat dress. That's why never* seen in the usual photos (ie, Capt Henry Bear after swimming the Rhine.).

If anyone has the connections to sort out the tangled web of Royal Artillery unofficial insignia it's you.

* What did Bond say about never?

NEMO 23-08-09 02:44 PM

HI there ,
the RA ANTI-TANKS cloth titles is a good original example in every way the white backing cloth is correct but the big clue is the lettering the individual stitches of the letters ,they have an unusual contruction and if you run your finger over them they have a distinct raised feel to them and the distinct colouring that has prooved ( so far ) too difficult to reproduce.

My own very strong belief is that many of these un / semi official cloth titles LIGHT TANK SQUADRON , ANTI TANKS etc etc were worn far more often than collectors realise , many were `taken down ` in 1942-43 but some men / units continued to wear them on best / walking out uniform again this may have taken place around the time the individual left the services and wore the titles on his ` home coming ` bd .
Luc is bang on when he states

" there are regulations and there is practise "

there is too much of the
` this would never be allowed the R.S.M would have a fit if he saw that been worn ` etc
Regulations on dress and insignia were often broken inparticular in special ist forces .

Regarding the ` Airborne ` strip after the order to remove them in 1944 some men continued to wear them to the wars end and after , if this was unit choice or just done by individuals again may be on best bd i can not say but they were even worn by the Indian Airborne In the far east despite what has been written else where .
regards ,Nemo.

NEMO 04-10-09 07:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
AN original RA ANTI-TANK title , notice the distinct colour of the wording and the raised shape of the letters ,regards ,Nemo

54Bty 05-10-09 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEMO (Post 48687)
AN original RA ANTI-TANK title , notice the distinct colour of the wording and the raised shape of the letters ,regards ,Nemo

OK, so who is wearing it?

Luc 27-12-09 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 54Bty (Post 48737)
OK, so who is wearing it?

It is a picture of a BD blouse also sporting airborne insignia.
Is there any proof that the RA Anti Tank was worn by the airborne troops other than Nemo's blouse?

JON188 14-02-21 01:02 PM

Attributed R.A.Anti-Tank
 
I have in my collection a pair of (WORN) said titles that I won at auction in 2020.
The items I won came straight from the great niece of the deceased.

His name is J.D. Skaife-D'Ingerthorpe RA.
I have in theatre made wings, Pegasus etc
He took place in the South of France Invasion, was in Greece and Palestine.

Therefore the pattern NEMO alludes to were certainly worn. When however......


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