I Should have joined earlier!
 

Hello,

My name is Simon Butterworth and I live in Lancashire, England.

I have collected British military badges for over 45 years now and have changed my collecting theme several times over the years.

For the last 20 years I have collected solely to the Manchester Regiment, including its componant units such as the 63rd Foot, 96th Foot, 6th Lancashire Militia and all the Lancashire RVC's that made up its Volunteer Battalions. I have an extensive collection of badges, medals, and every other item you can think of ralating to the Regiment and believe the badge collection to be the largest in existence.

I am a member of the Manchester Regimental Museum Committee and catalogued its collection. They have asked me to prepare a publication on the Regiments badges but I cant see a time when it will be finished!

A side line of mine is collecting Kings Crown Commonwealth Artillery 'Field Gun' style Cap Badges and British Red Cross Badges, titles and medals.

I know several members on here, particularly those that are interested in the Manchester Regiment. I am sorry I havent joined previously but for the last 10 years I have really been pre-occupied with collecting, researching and writing about Manchester Regiment medals, rather than my true interest which is badges. So its time to get back to my roots.

I hope I can help others on the forum, particular with British badge identification as I have a wealth of knowledge I have built up over the years and have handled both metal and cloth badges of all periods.

I also would like to learn more from collectors of Commonwealth Artillery badges particularly the CEF battery badges which are a minefield.

I (think I) have attached a couple of photos as a small taster below.

thankyou

Welcome Simon, stunning picture!

Ivan

Hello Simon, welcome, great looking photos
Best
Jack

Welcome Simon, you are a very valuable addition to the forum membership.

Hello Simon and welcome.

Peter

Simon,
Welcome, I suppose the first question someone was going to ask, so it may as well be me, is who wore the solid bi-metal "Coat if Arms" often mis-referred (?) to as a "Pals" badge?

Andy

Baptism by fire :D

Bit harsh that Andy, making him earn his 'stripes' :D so soon by asking him a hard one like that!

(sorry, couldn't resist it)!

Ivan,
Not a problem'

I didn't want to get "Pipped at the Post"!

:eek:

Andy

Andy,

You are correct in that many sellers on ebay and dealers websites refer to this non-voided bi-metal pre-1923 cap badge as the "Pals" badge, which as we know it is not.

The Pals badge is bronzed brass on two wide spaced loops. It often appears as shiny brass where it has been cherished and polished after the war.

This badge appears in 2 distict patterns, the one you show with a die flaw running vertically down the right hand side of the shield and another version without the flaw.

As with most badges there is little or no reference to it being introduced or worn.

It has always been my educated opinion that it was a type of economy issue badge issued during WW1, being much easier and quicker to poroduce than the standard voided version. As I say its an opinion only.

Whilst discussing the Manchester Regiment its a good time to correct two misconceptions about Manchester Regiment badges that have been perpetuated not just on this forum but in dealers/auction catalogues.

1. The floriated fleur de lys cap badge is for the 7th (TF) BN. This has NOTHING to with Ardwick, as the 8th (Ardwick) Bn wore standard Regimental badges. By the way to confuse matters even more, the 1st Bn were wearing floriated FdL's in their Field Service Caps prior to 1898 in GM for O/R's and Silver for Officers.

2. The small tri-part lower scroll City Arms cap badge is referred to on here as for Warrant Officers. Thats not true. It is an officers badge in Silver or Bronze for OSD and found with a sunrays and without sunrays over the globe. Lots of photographiic evidence of it being worn c. 1900 into WW1. By the way there are about a dozen different style OSD badges being worn in the same Bn's in the same period. Bet you didnt expect that!!

Keep the questions coming, I like talking about my hobby.

regards

Hello Simon,
I've always liked the Manchester's, tell me about their anodised badge, just who exactly wore them?
Kind regards Frank.

Incidently, if you ever wanted to meet up, I was thinking "The Ladysmith" perhaps.

Hello Simon, nice to see a familiar name on the Forum
George

Thats an impressive collection, I'm not far from Ashton myself.

Simon,

Firstly let me add my welcome.

It has always been a point of conjecture as to whether piercing was abandoned on some badges during the great war to speed up production. I see that question in relation to The Royal Irish Regiment and The Connaught Rangers come up often. The War Office did experiment officially with elimination of voiding (piercing) on some corp badges in an attempt to save labor. But, it was not, based on the research I have been able to do, officially extended to the Infantry & Cavalry badges and was discontinued for the "test specimens" after several months of production as being ineffectual.

There is an entry as such in the RACD list of Changes in the National Archives.

Thus officially at least there was no WO instruction to eliminate voiding on Infantry badges, indeed the entry specifically comments that regiments will be happy not to see their badges disfigured. Once I am back at home I shall provide a transcription of the entry and the references as to its location at The National Archives and I would be happy to send a photo of the entry if you desire it - just PM me your contact details.

Of course as in all matters just because the WO said it was not to be does not necessarily mean that, that is what happened.

John

Anodised badge
 

As far as I am aware everyone should have wore them during its period of use. This includes regulars and TA. Officers of course probably wore silver/silver plate badges.

Of course these are just rules and as we know rules are to be broken. I have had ample photographic evidence of Victorian Crown cap badges being worn in WW1 by various other regiments.

Always impossible to tell from photos of course as all look the same.

The only way to be sure is for ex-members to add their recollections but they can be quite blurred after 50 years as to such a minor detail in their service life.

As I recall there are 2 makers often encountered, Smith & Wright and also Grove.

regards

111 Regt RAC (Manchester)
 

I would be very interested in any information you might have on regimental insignia worn during its brief existence by 111 Regt RAC. It was formed from 5 Manchesters on 1 Nov 41, serving in 11 Armd Bde, 42 Armd Div and later in 77 Inf Div. 111 Regt RAC was disbanded in December 1943, never having served outside the UK.
If forced to wear the RAC beret badge, did 111 Regt RAC mark its Manchesters' roots by adding some regimental insignia to their RAC battledress?
Thanks
Mike